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Is either coin fake?

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Valued Member
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2008  01:50 am Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Swamperbob...need your help if you please.

Following are images of two Carolus lll 8 reales where the legends on the shield side don't quite compare. That is to say, on my 1788 dated coin, from the bottom going west reads .REX.M.8R.F.M.(all up the one way); whereas my 1772 Carolus lll legend has the mintmark "M" upsidedown, as also are Assayer initials "FM".
Please go here:
http://users.chariot.net.au/~villai...Page_43.html

Cheers, Les

Edited by Goodasgold
05/15/2008 10:05 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2008  10:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add halfabustisbetter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Les,

I know Swamper can provide more expert detail but I recall inverted version for the Mo mint for, I believe, both '72 and '73, so the inversion should not weigh as a main factor in determining whether coin is genuine or not. We should wait on the expert though for a thorough analysis.

HABIB
Valued Member
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2008  03:30 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for info, Habib. Wasn't all that concerned, only that when first noticed this my immediate thought was; "Now just hang on here a minute..!"

Again thanks...
Les
Pillar of the Community
United States
3189 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2008  11:46 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Goodasgold In 1772 and 1773 there was a partial inversion involving the Mint Mark and the Assayer Initials. It is a listed variety in Krause KM 106.1. It is in demand as a variety because it was only made 2 years. There is a RARE error in 1772 - the inverted assayer initials were cut into the die backwards so it reads MF instead of FM. Yours is the normal version of the KM 106.1.

From what I can see in the picture - I see no problems with authenticity.
Valued Member
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2008  03:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Swamperbob...'m slowly building a Machine made 1732-1833 'Monarch' type-set. These of course will include Kings: Philip V, Ferdinand VI, Carolus III, Carolus IV and Ferdinand VII.

I'd like to find all relevant mints, assayers and portrait design differences(as occurs with Ferdinand VII). So to that end, does any such info exist that I can easily access?

regards, Les
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1379 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2008  10:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are you only doing 8's? If that is the goal you'll need at minimum thee following varieties from Mexico mint. Are you going for the other mints as well?
Phillip V Mo
Phillip V MX
Ferdinand VI
Carolus (Carlos) III Pillar
Carolus III portrait
Carolus IV portrait of Carolus III
Carolus IIII portrait of Carolus III
Carolus IIII portarait of Carolus IIII
Ferdinand VII Armored Bust
Ferdinand VII Draped Bust
These will take you to 1821 at the Mexico Mint. If you expand into the other mints, my favorite is the Lima mint which just made up a bust for Ferdinand in 1808-1809 and 1809=1811. They are often called "Lima Busts" or "Imaginary Busts". Good luck on your collection, what a fun project. The hardest type will be the Phillip V MX
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
Valued Member
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2008  06:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many thanks for reply and handy info, jfransch. And yes, just doing 8R's... think that's plenty for me. It'a case of 'slowly does it' for the time being, but would like eventually to have all mints... and Assayer's too would be really great. But now thinking might need to win Lotto first!

Anyway, cheers and thanks again.
Les
Valued Member
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2008  08:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Following are images of two Carolus lll 8 reales where the legends on the shield side don't quite compare. That is to say, on my 1788 dated coin, from the bottom going west reads .REX.M.8R.F.M.(all up the one way); whereas my 1772 Carolus lll legend has the mintmark "M" upsidedown, as also are Assayer initials "FM".
Please go here:
http://users.chariot.net.au/~villai...Page_43.html


Thought should also add, Coins measure thus: 1772 is 41 mm diameter and 26.2g., while 1788 is 39 mm and 26.7g.
Are these dimensions typical?

Cheers,
Pillar of the Community
United States
3189 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2008  11:34 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The diameters and weights are within a possible range. The 1772 is at the upper limit of diameter and the lower limit of allowable weight in my opinion. The 1788 is just about perfect for that year and wear level.
Valued Member
Australia
125 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2008  07:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Goodasgold to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My few 8R's are kept in a DANSCO Supreme album, where it starts off empty and you just simply add blank pages to accomodate your coins.

Sounds staightforward enough; but since 8R's can vary so much in size, this can impact on how we may choose to arrange these items for display - only just a thought and no real big deal.

cheers,
Pillar of the Community
United States
3189 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2008  3:23 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is a problem with all open collar strikes. There is no such thing as a "standard" size. Each mint and each mintmaster seemed to have a different standard. Diameter is a variable until about 1860 when the Mexican mints began a process of standardization. That is one reason why the 8R became a well accepted Trade dollar (Standard Size). The earlier dates varied over a much wider range.
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