Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Coin Community Forum
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Matte Proof 1915 Buffalo Nickel: Is it, or isn't it?

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
United States
4007 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2008  12:20 pm Show Profile Check Jaobler's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add Jaobler to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

I saw the post by Podoprigora about matte proof Lincoln cents and I have a similar question. My 1915 nickel is certified by PCI as a matte proof, graded PR64. I sent it to PCGS in a crossover attempt, specifying a minimum grade of PR63. They did not cross it, stating that it had "questionable color". In typical PCGS fashion, the question about whether it is actually a proof was not addressed.
These new photos have accurately captured the razor-sharp detail of this coin. The color is fairly true-to-life, as well. But, is it a matte proof? Do any of our resident experts have an opinion?

Thanks!



Pillar of the Community
United States
2395 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2008  1:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mycrob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Beautiful coin with nice toning. Questionable color? It's TONED! However, I don't have enough knowledge to say whether it is a proof.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2008  2:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Im with Mycrob , matte proofs require a dedicated study of the dies to Identify I would not know one especially in the Buff nickels .

The coin is beautiful ! PCGS just wants you to submit it about three or four times before they put it in plastic .

One of the big problems I have with the TPG's .

I have been following a couple of threads on another forum over the weekend , there are so many AT coins in PCGS slabs it really surprises me that they would even consider sending out a finding of questionable color on a coin .
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
17608 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2008  4:51 pm  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Holy Cow, James. Like most issues that are new to me, I went straight to Heritage results to research this one. Your coin is just a superior strike, the equal of the very best I saw at Heritage.

Mention is made of a "wispy die crack," noted by Breen, across the bison's shoulder and torso. I was not able to see this crack on many of the coins pictured at Heritage, nor on your coin; look at the photos of the PCGS PR67 auction ended October 25, 2008 for a clear picture of this crack.

What a coin.
The best thing about a bicycle is that it uses no gasoline, therefore the chance of fiery death is greatly reduced.

Catman, Gary Burke, Bigg Fredd, coinguybrian, numismo, Johnny54321 - CCF members emeritus, now part of Heaven's Own Coin Club.

Our members sell on eBay!
Pillar of the Community
United States
4007 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2008  5:16 pm  Show Profile Check Jaobler's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I tried to locate an example on Heritage that would have similar markers as my coin. I particularly was looking for the little "pimple" that appears at the left side of the Y in LIBERTY on my coin. I think I did see hints of that mark on a few Heritage coins.
This photo is of an NGC-slabbed PR67 coin that sold in a May 5, 2004 Heritage auction. It doesn't really show that pimple but the feather outlines do appear to match my coin. If my coin is in fact a proof I'd guess that it shares the same obverse die as this Heritage coin.

Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1127 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2008  6:22 pm  Show Profile Check weerdsteev's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add weerdsteev to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Please send it to me so that I can observe it up close and personal for the next 20 or 30 years. At the end of that time you may send me your return address and my heirs will render my opinion. If requested, they might even consider sending the nickel back.
GORGEOUS COIN!
(Sorry - I know that doesn't answer your question, but at least I paid you(r coin) a compliment! )
Edited by weerdsteev
12/29/2008 8:59 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
9250 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2008  4:04 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
there are so many AT coins in PCGS slabs it really surprises me that they would even consider sending out a finding of questionable color on a coin .

Why should that surprise you?

Quote:
PCGS just wants you to submit it about three or four times before they put it in plastic




Valued Member
United States
317 Posts
 Posted 01/04/2009  11:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Terror Of Zanarkand to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Valued Member
United States
131 Posts
 Posted 01/05/2009  11:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add groganking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jaobler:

I thought I would be able to give you an answer. I collect Buffalo's and have a 1915 PF in an NGC holder myself that I recently purchased. I also consulted with Lange's Complete Guide to Buffalo nickels and Bowers' Guide Book to Buffalo's and Jefferson nickels. My first thought looking at the image of your coin was that it is definitely a Matte Proof based on the granularity and overall look. however, Lange says that that is deceptive, particularly for the 1915 issue which in better circulation strikes can look a lot like the Matte proofs. Next, I noticed that your coin does not have a flat rim all around on both sides. A proof should have this, according to Bowers. But I looked at my 1915 Proof and it looks not quite flat at the top either.

Moreover, Lange says a diagnostic of the Matte Buffalo proofs is a small triangular defect to the right of the "E" in UNITED. Your coin does appear to have such a defect. Now that I have thoroughly confused you, I would say that you have a 1915 Matte Proof, toned, that allowed PCGS (correctly or not) to avoid answering the question.

I attach images of my 1915 Proof:

Image: 272164_o.jpg
38.21 KB

Image: 272164_r.jpg
41.4 KB
Edited by groganking
01/06/2009 12:15 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
4007 Posts
 Posted 01/06/2009  10:50 pm  Show Profile Check Jaobler's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Grogan,
Thanks for the thoughtful input! I appreciate it!

I inspected the E in UNITED under a microscope today and I'm not sure I see the "triangular defect" you refer to. There is a somewhat wedge-shaped bulge of metal right between the end of the upper crossbar of the E and the top of the D. Can you provide a more precise description of this diagnostic feature, so I will know what to look for?

I'm thinking about just sending the coin off to ANACS for crossover. I haven't sent anything to ANACS lately. Do you suppose they would at least confirm whether it's a proof, even if it doesn't "make the grade" for the cross?
Valued Member
United States
131 Posts
 Posted 01/06/2009  11:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add groganking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Jaobler

The "triangular defect" is referred to in the Lange reference but it does not give any more detail than that. I would assume the wedge-shape you see is what he is referring to. I do not see this at all on my 1915. Another possible diagnostic is a minute die line between 7 and 9 o'clock on the reverse border. I do not see this on mine either. To further complicate things, Lange says that these diagnostics are not foolproof because he believes that when these dies were retired from proof strikes, they may have been used for circulation strikes afterwards. Bowers actually goes so far as to suggest that we shouldn't purchase proof coins unless certified by a reliable service (easy for him to say).

As for ANACS, I am the wrong person to ask for firsthand experience. From what I have seen and heard about them recently, it seems like a good option, particularly because they do assign details grades for problem coins (I am not convinced yours is a problem coin). If you do get it in a slab, let us know how it turns out. From the photo, I think it is better than PF64.
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
SWCoins - We Love CoinsShop at PDS Coins!CoinSniper.com is the numismatic penny auction.SELECTED Modern WORLD Coins with LOW Mintage
Coin Community Member eBay Sales - Only CCF Members Included Here
Ending Soon   Newly Listed   Lowest Price   Highest Price  
Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  
New Forum Topics Recently Active Forum Topics




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2014 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use
Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2014 Coin Community Forums Go To Top Of Page
It took 2.95 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05