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1897 British Penny. Help to identify tide and value please.

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Schwanke
Valued Member
United States
241 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  08:49 am Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Schwanke to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

This is my first post and almost my first coin as a collector so please be gentle. :)

I got this from a 10lb lot of world coins off eBay just wanting some stock to go through and see what I find while I 'experimented' with collecting. I knew I had seen dozens of these in the last 10lbs but they were all pretty much mauled to death by angry bears with sledgehammers so when I saw one that looked remotely reasonable and with such a much older date I wondered if maybe 'I found something' even if its only a dollar or two of value if even that.

Me and my dad are debating the tide based on internet research. As I can tell the low tide is about the ankle where as the high tide is about where the the second leg touches the first. I think its low myself.

What I kept getting confused on in the research was which tide was the more rare. I figure unlikely I have the rare one so that didnt help us with our determining the tide either.

Does this coin have any 'real value'. I realize this is probably not going to be a 20 dollar coin but I also figure 99% of my collection for the first couple years is going to be coins less then 50 cents. :D

Thanks for any advice and help. here is the coin.





Formerly nancyc
Australia
3633 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  08:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Nevol to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The high tide variety is the scarce one. Go to this site and search for 1897:
http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/penny.html

A picture is available, but no value, just says it's scarce.



A friend is a present you give to yourself.

Nancy
Edited by Nevol
08/21/2012 09:00 am
Valued Member
Coin Community SupporterSupporter!
United States
241 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  09:11 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Schwanke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I searched and found the graphic for the high tide but my brain cant seem to tell the difference between the two. I know the 3 things to look at are the location of the tide itself, the location of the trident with respect to the outer markings and the location of the P in Penny with respect to the outer markings.

My trident is too mashed for that to be of much use I think. The ankle around the high tide seems so faded I cant tell where among the markings my brain wants to use for the high tide the tide actually falls. The P when I zoom in on that website's image to get a look at the location of the pips compared to the P the picture gets to grainy and I cant get a clear shot.

I *THINK* its low tide because I cant believe I found a rare high or you would have said something :D and I think the pips and ankle location are slightly different but thats the best I can do.

If you think I am wrong please let me know. :D

Also curious about its value even if its not rare or a link on where or how to look that up.

Thanks!

Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
937 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  09:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just looked this up in an out of date spinks catalogue (2002)

It illustrates that high tide comes level with the creases in the robe and low tide it is below the hemline and from the photo it touching the left foot.

Therefore I am pretty confident that you have a "high tide"

This list prices from 2002 say that half pennys £2 in VF condition and the High tide is £5 in vf condition yet it does not list seperate prices for the 1897 penny.

The penny has two listings for 1897... a normal one of £2 for VF and the second just saying "extremely rare" for a variety called "O'NE flawed". These appear in type 3961 with entries for 1895-1901.

Then under these listings it has type 3961a penny with low tide 1895 £35 in VF.

Therefore I assume that the low tide is the rare variety in penny possibly only available for 1895, and high tide is the rarer variety of half penny.

Hope that information was understandable/of use, I see it contradicts the website aformentioned...I have the spinks volume in my hand and would be ready to trust that over the website.

If my scanner worked with windows 7 I would scan the relevant page for you; I will have to do something about that :S
Modern:1961, Proof sets:5, Silver proof sets:3, Bullion Oz coins:25,
Banknotes:301, Hammered English:3, Gold:7, Greek:13, Roman:10,
Byzantine:1 Bactria:1 Celtic:1 Anglo-saxon:1 Chinese:6
Edited by DavidUK
08/21/2012 10:55 am
Pillar Of The Community
United States
2605 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  12:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add svslav to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The pic above is the "low tide" variety.

In this post I provided side by side images to compare.
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
937 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  2:05 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The photo in Spinks shows low tide touching the foot... here it is a couple MM above... so this is confusing.
Modern:1961, Proof sets:5, Silver proof sets:3, Bullion Oz coins:25,
Banknotes:301, Hammered English:3, Gold:7, Greek:13, Roman:10,
Byzantine:1 Bactria:1 Celtic:1 Anglo-saxon:1 Chinese:6
Valued Member
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United States
241 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  5:41 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Schwanke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Kid you not it looks like mine is right in the middle lol. Maybe he's takin a lunch break mid day at the beach :D.

Wondering if maybe thats not the tide line but some other artifact or some way the metal shifted in wear. (Like the way the trident is all smushed out.)

svslab your saying I have a low tide? The post you directed us to, one reply up I believe, says the 1903 low tide in VF brings 100 I guess thats pounds. (I'm USA). So its possible I have something valuable? (Or atleast it would have been had it been in better condition) or am I getting the highs and lows reversed in my head?

The more I compare the pic from that forum post and the pic of mine over and over again I can see how it could be low tide. The one from your post shows how the high tide almos looks like an extension of the curve from the clothing where as the low tide is down a smidgen. I think part of the problem is it looks like on mine the 'tip' of the tide on the left is bent up a little maybe from wear. So it kind of skews the view.

So if it is a low tide which is my guess? (I'm wingin it now :D) what would you guys think its worth? Again I'm not expecting outrageous numbers just trying to decide if its something that falls into 'monetarily special' and get a case for it or leave it in the 2x2 flip and see it as a cool old coin. :D

And since this is my first time grading an old coin, what kind of grade would this get based on the photo? I know its not a great photo, camera reflection, etc, but based on what you guys see I'm curious. I used to try and grade comic books and was never good at it with out a long list of what to look for and a counting system and I bet thats different for each coin here.

Thanks for all your help and really glad I found you all. I found another forum a little while ago and no one was posting on it after I posted about twice. Got more replies in the first 12 hours here then over two days there :D

Thanks!
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
3233 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  5:48 pm  Show Profile Check BenByfield's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BenByfield to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Im afraid this looks like a low tide. To be honest, it would be very very unlikely that you should get a rare coin. The way I can tell is because it cant really get any lower whilst remaining on the coin. Also, if you look at the picture provided of a high tide, it goes to the veil on the leg, this only goes up to the foot.

The valuation for these coins is often very harsh and what you need to do is find someone who wants it. Dont sell it for a couple of bucks, the coins are nicer than that.

Their valuation: £2-3.
My Valuation: Priceless, dont take less than £5 for it. A fine condition coin of Vicky should be worth more in my opinion, theres just so little demand.
Check my eBay Listings. Lots of stuff just gone up at 99p starting bid.
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
937 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  5:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will try and take my scanner somewhere and scan the related page... you will see why I still believe you have high tide, in the next couple of days hopefully I will do that.

It says the the low tide is the rare one too...I will have to show you all because now I am confused too.

and the date shown for the comparison photos is a 1902.

The coin shown here is Catalogue Number 3961 and low tide is a 3961a if you have spinks.
Modern:1961, Proof sets:5, Silver proof sets:3, Bullion Oz coins:25,
Banknotes:301, Hammered English:3, Gold:7, Greek:13, Roman:10,
Byzantine:1 Bactria:1 Celtic:1 Anglo-saxon:1 Chinese:6
Edited by DavidUK
08/21/2012 5:54 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
924 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  6:30 pm  Show Profile Check Pertinax's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pertinax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For the 1897 UK bronze penny,
I suggest you compare the pictures at the foot of www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/pics/pen3.html

The higher horizon is very rare - I've only seen one offered for sale at £120 in VF.

I'm sorry, but I think yours is the common type. I find your penny difficult to grade; I think F with the reverse slightly better.

For the 1902 UK bronze penny, it's the low tide variety that is scarce.
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
937 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  6:45 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply








I still say it is clearly high tide. Look at how it cuts across the top of the rear foot on the low tide, you can clearly distinguish the horizon above that foot on the high tide one as you can on the OP's coin.

Modern:1961, Proof sets:5, Silver proof sets:3, Bullion Oz coins:25,
Banknotes:301, Hammered English:3, Gold:7, Greek:13, Roman:10,
Byzantine:1 Bactria:1 Celtic:1 Anglo-saxon:1 Chinese:6
Edited by DavidUK
08/21/2012 6:48 pm
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
3233 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  7:16 pm  Show Profile Check BenByfield's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BenByfield to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
David, I think you are right! Could be a quite good investment. However, that being said, the first thing on eBay for 1897 penny is a similar coin - tide in same position, on sale for £2.30 (£1.00 with no bids, £1.30 shipping).

Id exercise caution, maybe find a local expert to look at it in hand.
Check my eBay Listings. Lots of stuff just gone up at 99p starting bid.
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
924 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  7:18 pm  Show Profile Check Pertinax's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pertinax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
DavidUK,
As the text suggests, that's for the 1895 penny, a completely different situation.
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
937 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2012  7:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes well Spinks is not a catalogue which lists every single variety of every single coin. They are only mentioning the low tide being a rare one for 1895, but from the photo I think the original posters coin is high tide as presumably are all the type 3961's. If the first coin seen on eBay was high tide for £2.50 or whatever then maybe we can safely assume that high tide is not the crown jewels.

I am not an expert on tides...I was just trying to show the information available to me as it seems to contradict the opinion that he has a low tide coin.

Modern:1961, Proof sets:5, Silver proof sets:3, Bullion Oz coins:25,
Banknotes:301, Hammered English:3, Gold:7, Greek:13, Roman:10,
Byzantine:1 Bactria:1 Celtic:1 Anglo-saxon:1 Chinese:6
Formerly nancyc
Australia
3633 Posts
 Posted 08/22/2012  10:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Nevol to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On this site in the first link, the final 2 images at the bottom of the page are both of 1897 Pennies, one with very high tide, the other with normal tide.

http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/pics/pen3.html

The very high tide image is the same coin as shown in this link:

http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/pi...d/1d97hr.jpg

Below are some images of 3 of my coins with a visible tide line, all of which I believe to be low tide varieties.

Coin 3

Coin 4

Coin 4 Close Up - Counting the whole denticles between the tide line and the line drawn from the big toe to the denticles, on my coin with clear denticles, there are 5 whole denticles.

Coin 5



Doing the same on Schwanke's's coin, I get the same count, so I think the that coin is also a low tide.
Schwanke's coin


Performing the same with the high tide coin from the UK site (the image of which I can't post here as it's not mine), I count 6 whole denticles. The image of the normal tide from the UK site is not clear enough to take any measurements from.

I have 5 x 1897 pennies and have taken pictures of all, but the tide line is only visible on 3, and to my eye they all look to be low tide, so using the assumption that if I have at least 3 of the low tide variety, and none of the high tide ones, then the Low tide are not particularly scarce, so logic would indicate that the high tide ones are in fact the scarce ones.

I hope this might help to clarify the situation.
A friend is a present you give to yourself.

Nancy
Pillar Of The Community
United Kingdom
937 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2012  12:45 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add DavidUK to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found listed in another booklet the 1897 high tide being scarce... really it seems like it should be described as "extra high tide" as it seems different from the pictures I posted for 1895...less difference that those two.

Anyway thanks for the clarification Nancy... this topic had me confused a little I must say.
Modern:1961, Proof sets:5, Silver proof sets:3, Bullion Oz coins:25,
Banknotes:301, Hammered English:3, Gold:7, Greek:13, Roman:10,
Byzantine:1 Bactria:1 Celtic:1 Anglo-saxon:1 Chinese:6
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