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How Far Does A Rotated Die Have To Be

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United States
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 Posted 03/07/2013  08:53 am Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Fatman to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Just a question on rotated dies and where I could find some info on them. I've three different denominations that are at 10 o'clock rotations or more and wondered how far they had to be before it's officially a rotated die?

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Canada
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 Posted 03/07/2013  09:00 am  Show Profile Check noahs-numismatics's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add noahs-numismatics to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any degree at all would be a rotated die, the lesser ones just wouldn't add any significant value.
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 Posted 03/07/2013  09:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Needs to be 30 or 40% to have a decent premium.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
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 Posted 03/07/2013  3:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mint specs considers any rotation less than 15 degrees to be within tolerances.
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Australia
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 Posted 03/07/2013  6:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with Noah.
John is probably correct.
quote: "Mint specs considers any rotation less than 15 degrees to be within tolerances"
- I'm very surprized by that, I would have thought that any measurable rotation would be outside tolerance.

On the subject of measurement: a particular Australian $1 is commonly seen with all degrees of rotation.
One of the Aussies built a device to hold the coin, and including a protractor, so that when you turned it over,
the rotation could be readily measured.
If you trawl the CCF archives, you'll find a thread, with pics.
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 Posted 03/07/2013  6:46 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In some instances the type of coin also makes a difference in what is or may be valuable for a rotated reverse.
For example most Mercury dimes that have any rear rotation would have to be excessive to make a difference since about 25% or more have some rotations. Same with Buffalo nickels.
Some collectors hate any rotation of the rear at all making it considered undireable. Some collectors will not even buy a coin with any rear rotation at all.
Yet as with many things with coins, there are error collectors that look for and will pay extra for any coin with a rotated reverse.
I've got many coins with the reverses rotated as much as 360 degrees and no one cares.
just carl
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 Posted 03/07/2013  6:51 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fuzzy317 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
just carl

I've got many coins with the reverses rotated as much as 360 degrees and no one cares.

you should get those slabbed.

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 Posted 03/07/2013  7:00 pm  Show Profile Check noahs-numismatics's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add noahs-numismatics to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I've got many coins with the reverses rotated as much as 360 degrees and no one cares.


You too?

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 Posted 03/07/2013  7:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fatman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You guys ain't right !
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Australia
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 Posted 03/08/2013  6:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It will likely depend. I read that in Australia 5 degrees or less is within specification.
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 Posted 03/09/2013  07:01 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ThisIsFun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Has potential for an eBay scam (lol)

L@@K! SUPER RARE 355 DEGREE ROTATED 1945 Mercury dime BU
slowly building a nice website for my ancient coins.
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Canada
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 Posted 03/09/2013  09:26 am  Show Profile Check noahs-numismatics's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add noahs-numismatics to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ohh la la! Super Rare is right!
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 Posted 03/09/2013  11:10 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I would have thought that any measurable rotation would be outside tolerance.

The dies are made a cylindrical piece of steel. The die needs to be locked in place in the press to keep it from rotating and this is done by tightening a set screw against the die. Now tightening a screw against a cylinder is difficult so about the last thing the do before hardening the die is to grind a flat along the length of the die body. That flat is ground by hand by pressing the die against a surface grinder. To keep the orientation of the dies right that flat needs to be ground in a specific place. but you are pick up these die and pressing them against the grinder by hand so the chances are that each die will be off for the ideal by a small amount. How far off does it have to be before the die exceed the 15 degree rotation spec? Less than 5 mm on a 1.5 inch diameter die body, or about two tenths of an inch. On smaller die bodies it gets even more critical.
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 Posted 03/09/2013  6:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
L@@K! SUPER RARE 355 DEGREE ROTATED 1945 Mercury dime BU

HOWEVER, the really important feature to make it valuable would be if that rotation is left or right.

Not sure about anyone else but if you have Mercury dimes in any kind of Album where you can see both sides those are the ones I suspect are the all time worse. Spend a lot of time lining up the Obverse of all of them, then turn the page and it's a complete mess. Usually about 25% or more are all tilted one way or the other.
just carl
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United States
197 Posts
 Posted 03/10/2013  07:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Newmismatist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a timely question for me. I recently noticed that a 1924 Peace dollar of mine is rotated only between 5 and 10 degrees. Apparently this amount of rotation doesn't enhance the coin's value.
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Russian Federation
745 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2013  09:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, I used to have a few Russian 10 kopeck coins with double die clashes rotated by several degrees from each other (less than 15, but it was very noticeable).
There just has to be a die rotation involved there in some way

(If you wonder about the "used to" part, that's because I sent them off last Secret Santa I mean, seriously, I find these approximately once per $2 worth of searched 10 kopeck coins, so I could always find some more.)
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