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Why Are Fantasy Coins Being Graded by the Big TPGs?  
 

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Valued Member
Canada
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 Posted 01/10/2017  9:41 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add silverai to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1908-China-K...332088370098

Why PCGS can grade a fantasy coin? What is the "standard"? If it is a fantasy coin, how can they tell it is "genuine"?
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Australia
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 Posted 01/10/2017  9:48 pm  Show Profile   Check trout1105's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good Grief.
PCGS has graded thousands of these.
Aim to Enjoy life. You only get one shot at it
Edited by trout1105
01/10/2017 9:51 pm
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Australia
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 Posted 01/10/2017  10:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I cannot see any reason why PCGS won't grade ANY non damaged coin.

Usual standards apply: amount of wear, and the amount of nicks and scratches.
The grading number assignments when Sheldon first devised the scale, relate to comparative value, based on the amount of wear.
The grading numbers these days are purely nominal, especially when the bulk of an issue is condition MS60 of better, and there is not much difference in value between low and high MS grades.
NCLT and fantasy coins are examples.
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 Posted 01/10/2017  11:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Debrajc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Not what I would want for my collection but they do have a following.
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 Posted 01/10/2017  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Check trout1105's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I cannot see any reason why PCGS won't grade ANY non damaged coin.


I disagree.
If that was the case then Non damaged or Mint state counterfeits would be graded and slabbed.
NCLT and Fantasy coins are two completely different things.
Anyone can produce Fantasy coins But only a Government approved Mint can produce NCLT coins which usually have a redeemable face value.
The face value on Fantasy coins is Non existent.
Aim to Enjoy life. You only get one shot at it
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 Posted 01/11/2017  12:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I take your point re counterfeits.
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 Posted 01/11/2017  12:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This thread points to the complexity of numismatics in the area of non-standard issues.

Grading and Authentication are two entirely different issues.

The TPGs are devolving into Graders only. Authentication gets very little attention. Recently they have been doing rather poorly at the authentication part.

I support the view that all numismatic materials can be classified according to what they actually are. It can be done scientifically. Fantasy issues are no different than any coin made by a government. Even counterfeit coins can be encapsulated - provided they are correctly identified as to what they really are. All that is needed is expertise and time.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 01/11/2017  01:19 am  Show Profile   Check coin197's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add coin197 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ANA Member since 12/2015
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Canada
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 Posted 01/11/2017  02:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silverai to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NGC is doing the same as well.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/1835-1908-Ch...AOSwjDZYdVVO

IMO, many coin collectors (especially new collectors) trust the grading organizations and believe their slabbed coin is authentic and valuable.

The bidding price for that fantasy coin has jumped over $100USD. I am sure some of those bidders don't realize what "fantasy coin" mean and they think they are bidding an authentic coin made in 1908, it is totally misleading.

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 Posted 01/11/2017  02:26 am  Show Profile   Check trout1105's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it is very wrong to "legitimise" this sort of garbage by putting them in a righteous slab.
Very deceiving to novice collectors indeed.
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Australia
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 Posted 01/11/2017  02:38 am  Show Profile   Check OneDollarMule's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add OneDollarMule to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As an collector who really enjoys Exonumia, I'm drawn to the "Fantasy" pieces. They can be very scarce and produced in small numbers. For example I have a budding collection of 1936/1937 Edward VIII pieces which are "new" but historically very interesting. I don't think there's anything misleading about the coins, especially when the TPG states they are fantasies on the slab. They usually also provide a reference to literature, I've sent many fantasy pieces for grading, only to be returned because the item wasn't in their reference material. If someone buys an item there is an expectation that they would know what they're buying, especially when the TPG states "Fantasy" we can't protect people from their own lack of knowledge in this regard.

As stated above, authenticity is being confused here, these coins are not counterfeit, they're fantasy products. There was never a 1936 Silver Crown issued under Edward the VIII to Australia, therefore my example of that coin is not a fake. Also the question of value, just because it's a fantasy doesn't mean its not in demand (or valuable).The fact NGC have slabbed it shows the coin is authentic in their view, i.e. its not a fake of a fantasy coin.

The points raised by swamperbob are key here and are very well stated!

Take a gander at my latest listings: http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/merchant/jon_9010/
Edited by OneDollarMule
01/11/2017 02:40 am
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 Posted 01/11/2017  04:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What happens when they have restrikes or mules or off metal strikes of fantasy issues? What about counterfeits of the fantasy issues? Not being legitimate mint issues who can even define them as counterfeit?
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 Posted 01/11/2017  09:22 am  Show Profile   Check trout1105's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What happens when they have restrikes or mules or off metal strikes of fantasy issues? What about counterfeits of the fantasy issues? Not being legitimate mint issues who can even define them as counterfeit?


And a very valid point Neal

With everyone moaning and whining about the flood of counterfeits coming out of China and elsewhere, Don't you think it would be Prudent NOT to legitimise these Fantasy issues which in reality walk a knifes edge of being counterfeits themselves.
Sure IF you like these sort of things then Fine collect them But for the TPG's to legitimise these by grading and slabbing them is Lunacy and cannot bode well for the hobby in the future.
Aim to Enjoy life. You only get one shot at it
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 Posted 01/11/2017  10:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joeysanders627 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Profit over integrity.
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 Posted 01/11/2017  6:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm only somewhat familiar with fantasies in the case of China. Kann describes many. In my mind, those fantasy coins of interest would be coins minted by employees or mint directors having no authority to do so from the central government. Sort of like genuine silver pieces that depict a princess or perhaps symbols of good luck but not an actual money coin. Chinese fantasy coins can be old and original and legitimate for collectors. Modern concoctions and oddball or whimsical present day pieces can sort of cloud the issue regarding fantasy coins. It's almost as if we need some better words to distinguish the different kinds of coins being cranked out present day compared to many of those made out of good metal and of good design but were made because the mint had little or no control by the emperor.
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 Posted 01/12/2017  02:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Albert raises a good point.


Quote:
we need some better words to distinguish the different kinds of coins being cranked out present day


Present terms are not adequate in many circumstances, but even terminology is not at the heart of the issue.

The problem is the combination of greed and fraud in the market place.

A reasonable person should not object to a properly described item being sold.

The objection I would have is to things being sold fraudulently using incorrect or deceptive descriptions.

How Novices may respond is a red herring argument that obscures the actual issue. Anyone making a purchase without adequate personal knowledge of the item risks being defrauded. The appropriate defense is to educate collectors.

In the meantime the "buyer beware" process should be followed. Do not make a purchase unless you know exactly what you are doing. If you do make purchases with no knowledge, you have no one other than yourself to blame.

There is a second issue clouding the topic as well.

The ability to distinguish original issues from replicas.

Scientific identification can in most cases discern between original items and knock off versions. If a "knock-off" is made using identical materials and methods as an "original" and if that difference can not be detected - then and only then is there a genuine problem.

So far, those cases are few and far between.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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