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CAROLUS IIII DEI GRATIA 1808

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United States
3 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2010  10:43 pm Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add FRANCIS to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Hi could some one tell me a little about this coin where it's from and how much it would be worth thanks francis




***Edited by Staff to put images in post***

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United States
3189 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2010  11:19 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coin is a Potosi, Bolivia 8 Reale - a Spanish Colonial issue. These were trade dollars made for export purposes and were heavily counterfeited.

The small counterstamps are called Chop marks. These were merchant and bank proof marks. They appear on coins that circulated in the orient - especially China. But they too have been forged.

A real 8R is silver and weighs 27 grams in high grades and about 26 grams in the state of preservation of yours. You should start by checking the weight.

The edge on real 8Rs of this type is a rectangle - circle pattern. The designs alternate. The edge was applied prior to the blank being struck. It was done on a two bar edger so that there mu.st be 2 overlaps in the edge design of identical length - it may be impossible to verify this on a coin of this grade.

The surface of your coin looks like it is rather porous. That could be due to exposure to a corrosive environment or it could be a cast copy.

The original 8Rs were about 90% silver so you should also check the Specific Gravity. A real 8R has an SG of 10.3.

The value of this coin would have to be established after its authenticity has been verified.
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United States
3 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2010  11:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add FRANCIS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thank you for the information it is 28 grames and is this what your talking about on the edges
<a href="http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o70/LONGLOMPOC/?action=view¤t=COINSIDE2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o70/LONGLOMPOC/COINSIDE2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o70/LONGLOMPOC/?action=view¤t=COINSIDE1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o70/LONGLOMPOC/COINSIDE1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Valued Member
Greece
424 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2010  04:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add epop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have also a n 8 real with chopmarks and can't say if it 's real or not.Weight is 26.95 gramms and is a 1792 specimen.

Edited by epop
08/14/2010 04:41 am
Valued Member
Greece
424 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2010  04:41 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add epop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
reverse

Valued Member
Greece
424 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2010  04:43 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add epop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and edge which is important as read on previous posts.





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United States
3189 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2010  09:30 am  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FRANCIS The design used on the edge is the colonial type but it is most likely too worn to show the overlaps or to allow you to determine their exact length.

However, the weight you posted 28 grams is too high. An original 8R would not have been that heavy and given the wear level and the gouge near the edge I would expect a 1 gram loss. I am afraid that if the weight is precise (28.0 grams) that you have a counterfeit.

epop Your 1798 looks a bit better but I do have two areas of concern which BOTH point toward the same conclusion.

First, On both sides of the coin I see surface lumps that look suspicious. Most are in the field in front of the King's face BUT they also occur in and around details on the other side. They are worn but still present. Lumps like this by themselves are NOT PROOF that the coin is a fake. But they are an item that makes me look further. That is because while they CAN OCCUR on real coins they are far more common on the late 19th century bullion forgeries made for the China Trade. The lumps are caused by surface damage on the dies themselves. This type of damage was routinely removed in the mint by re-surfacing the die. The forgers, who were more interested in die life than in the beauty of their output did not tend to surface the dies so more lumps and bumps are common.

Second, there is a feature on the edge of the coin which is an error seen on many of the same class of bullion forgeries. The EXTRA VERTICAL BAR between two circles. That identical feature is seen on many of the bullion copies. Here is a detailed comparison of what I see.




Once again, this is a clue NOT PROOF by itself. The next step is to check the edge at exactly 180 degrees from this point and see if it has an OVERLAP in the edge. If a similar ABRUPT change occurs it could be real. But if the edge on the opposite side is normal - circle - rectangle - circle etc. You have a counterfeit.

Even if it is a counterfeit, it is most likely one of the bullion forgeries made in the US after 1870. Most dealers treat them as real and they sell for the same prices as real coins especially for common date worn coins. They did circulate along side real coins for decades and they do contain the full weight (usually) of silver.

You should weigh your coin and if possible run a test to determine specific gravity.

I am trying to educate collectors about the fact that this group of bullion forgeries actually exists. Most average collectors simply do not know or do not care. It is a situation very similar to the 1950 D US 5 cent coin. In that case, (as in the case of Portrait 8Rs) the counterfeits outnumber (or certainly approach on number) the originals on the market but that is a different story.
Valued Member
Greece
424 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2010  12:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add epop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob I am really amazed from your professional explanation about this 8 real coin.I want to thank you because you share with us all of your knowledge for coins.Thank you very much

P.SI weight the coin and it is exactly 26.95 grams.I'll keep it ,fake or real is a piece of history.
New Member
United States
3 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2010  7:02 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add FRANCIS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your time and help swamperbob do you know you might I send the coin to authenticate and how much it cost to do so or should I try a local coin dealer
Pillar of the Community
United States
3189 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2010  8:08 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Authentication could cost up to $30 which is more than you should spend. A local coin dealer likely has a better scale that will weigh the coin to 1/10th gram. The dealer might give you an opinion as well, but most dealers outside Mexico or the SW US might not know much about the series.

Confirming the weight is critical. Anything above 26.7 or so means it is a fake.
New Member
United States
1 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2012  9:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add galvanlinda to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I also have a 1808 carolus IIII coin can anyone tell me an estimate how much it's worth?
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France
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/03/2012  01:52 am  Show Profile Check MathieuMa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
galvanlinda : welcome to ccf :)
Please post pictures of your coin (if possible of its rim as well) - their pricing greatly depend on their conservation (and other hints on the coin - mint, mint master, overdate, and so on)
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