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69-D No FG Cent FS-901

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 Posted 02/12/2011  7:10 pm Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Here's an interesting subject that'll take on a life of it's own-

1969-D FS-901, No FG listed in the Cherrypicker's Guide.....This variety should NEVER have been placed in the book- it's NOT a die variety.
I noticed that PCGS had a pop of 1 coin for this variety, so I searched some 69-D rolls, pulled a dozen with weak FG. I sent the first in to PCGS, got a -63RD....sent a second and got a -64RD, both coins attributed on the holder. BUT, when I sent a half dozen all together, all from the same rolls....PCGS refused to put the designation on the holder, still charging me full variety attribution price!

Please examine the photos below- the first is of the MS-63 which got attributed and sold for $300, the second photo is of an example that they wouldn't attribute.

My point in all of this is- This variety was caused by a blockage of grease over the FS initials.....the book says the initials were missing off of the die, THIS IS NOT TRUE. Examine the coins, on both you'll see vestiges of FG......When a die is made, it can not be made with part of the detail missing- this only happens through die abrasion and wear or foreign material blocking die detail.

Ken's going to be doing an incredible job on the newest edition of CP. But I guess my bone to pick is with PCGS- I don't know who's attributing die varieties for them, but they've had several similar, but not FS varieties slip through as FS coins recently. PCGS is SUCH a market maker, it's scary that their attributer is so inexperienced. BUT WHO ARE WE TO ARGUE WITH THE "EXPERTS"? (!)

I'd like to hear what others think-
I'm not asking for help or answers---honestly I think those who have been doing this for decades have more valid opinions than TPGs. I have my own opinions of this error, it's not a die variety and not worthy of being associated with them.



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 Posted 02/12/2011  7:37 pm  Show Profile Check Maineman750's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree it's not a variety....take a look at other cents such as the 88 for example.I find no FG's often enough, but they get thrown back.I also tend to agree that making money is the name of the game when it comes to TPG's...and I don't like what I'm seeing and hearing in that respect.
Lincolncentresource.net
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 Posted 02/12/2011  7:48 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting and provocative thread .... great feed for discussion and debate!

Sooo ... first ... for the benefit of our less experienced members ... lets clean up a typo that matters ...


Quote:
This variety was caused by a blockage of grease over the FS initials


Should state 'blockage of grease over the FG initials" .... newbies can see these initials on the reverse of a normal 1969-D LMC at the lower right corner of the Memorial.

Sooo ... the topic then really multi-fold ... as I see it ...

What constitutes a true variety?

In the Jefferson nickel series there exists a 1990-D 'no initials' coin that is really the same in concept as the OP coin ... a grease filled die that many of us search for. Is this a variety ... what makes a true variety?

What role does/should the 'books/experts' play in determining popular opinion on varieties?

Just for fun .... suppose I announce today with irrefutable photo evidence the first ever LMC-2010-DDO 'variety' ... a true hub doubled obverse die ... of course it will not be published anywhere official ... sooooo ... what is it 'officially'?

How do the TPG play into all this?

Seems to me the TPG follow the popular opinion ... with the weakness of human error and lack of true rigor and agreed upon systems to catalog possible varieties.

I suppose your 69-D 'no FG' is a good straw-man example of this ...

Soooo .... IMHO ... from here going forward the collecting community must put a foot down and form a consensus on the topic .... otherwise we will flounder with false varieties and unmet hopes.

David
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.finewoodcrafter.com
Too many hobbies .... too much work .... not enough time.
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 Posted 02/12/2011  8:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks so much for bringing clarity to my muddled ramblings David!! So well put.

There is mention of the 1988P No FG Cent- THIS ONE is of a different cause- the initials ARE abraded off, most likely polished off to remove a clash mark. On the 1988P the image of Lincoln inside the Memorial is ALSO missing. There are heavy die polish lines on the reverse. This coin in my own opinion is FAR more collectible as a variety, as the missing detail WAS removed from the die. Below are photos of the 1988, which I have reason to believe could possibly appear in a future edition of CP......so again, I've made this subject clear as mud.....glad to help!

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 Posted 02/12/2011  8:09 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Neglected to mention .... indeed welcome aboard liveandievarities .... great to have another expert here at the best coin forum ever.

David
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.finewoodcrafter.com
Too many hobbies .... too much work .... not enough time.
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 Posted 02/12/2011  8:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ARRGH- Again, the files are too large. I tried optimizing with free software off the net. Didn't work well.....can anyone help me with this?
Edited by liveandievarieties
02/12/2011 8:28 pm
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 Posted 02/12/2011  8:23 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Please ... for your own safety ... delete your e-mail address!

Loading photos to the forum server require they be less than 90Kb in file size and jpeg images.

There are plenty of free off-site image hosting programs .... here are instructions for one many of the members use ..

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...PIC_ID=53146

Looking forward to your photos!

David

Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.finewoodcrafter.com
Too many hobbies .... too much work .... not enough time.
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 Posted 02/12/2011  8:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks so much for your help! I think this'll work.

These are photos of the 1988P No FG, No Lincoln inside the Memorial.
The omission of these details are a result of die polishing. A more collectible variety than the 69D in my own opinion.



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 Posted 02/12/2011  8:47 pm  Show Profile Check XavierOfGreen's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add XavierOfGreen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do the 88's command the premiums that the 69ds do?
Oldest Found-------
Cent: 1842 (from machine) ---- Three Cent: 1866 [Nickel] (from machine)
Nickel: 1883 (from roll) ---- Dime: 1911 (from roll)
Quarter: 1932 (from machine) ---- Half: 1917 (from roll)
Dollar: 1880 (from machine) ---- Foriegn: 1863 (from machine)
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 Posted 02/12/2011  9:04 pm  Show Profile Check Maineman750's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
IMO...a grease filled die should not be considered a variety...I would rather call it an error in keeping with what I've learned on here to date....possibly even damage, but not a variety simply because you'll not find a die with that variety except at random.
Lincolncentresource.net
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 Posted 02/12/2011  9:07 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NO- and let me caution you about paying ANY premium for the '69-D. If you spend $30 in BU rolls, you'll likely come up with examples. The fellows who pay ridiculous money for these things are PCGS Registry Collectors- who are buying the plastic, not the coin, and usually don't have a firm grasp of the origin of the error.

Personally- I feel the '69D No FG is a VALUELESS coin.

The 1988P in my own opinion IS collectible as a die variety. <<edited by the Staff. Please review the rules you agreed to when joining.>> I believe they'll command stronger premiums IF they are shown in a major variety attribution book.

1988 is becoming a hot year to cherrypick varieties. There's this die malady, the transitional reverses of '89 for both mints as well as a couple of decent doubled dies. Rolls are slightly pricey, a bit abvove $10, but circulation is your best bet for the transitional reverses.
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 Posted 02/12/2011  9:19 pm  Show Profile Check Maineman750's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You had to say that....now I have something else to save..I thought I did good by releasing those no FG's...but I only remember one that looked like your pic...the rest were grease I'm sure.Have you seen any sources with values for the 88 RDV-006 ?
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 Posted 02/12/2011  9:34 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes- My sources are my own experience buying and selling it, conversations with others about the variety and actual sales on eBay.

The Philly RDV is the more common of the 2 mints. Usually found in circulation, Gem BU Red examples are truly rare. I only handled RB AU/BU examples. Their value is in the $40-80 range depending on precise condition. I've been told that a Gem example traded hands for $400. I think this is a reasonable price. I've never seen a Gem Red piece.

The Denver RDV is quite scarce to rare. I'm in the western US, WA state. We get Denver coins but I've never encountered one.

Both of the transitional reverses are rare enough that I've never cherrypicked one. I've paid a premium for several examples of the 88P though.
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 Posted 02/12/2011  9:48 pm  Show Profile Check Maineman750's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've got two Philly's and one possible D, I'm trying to get good pics of it to post before I claim it.I can understand why a Gem would be scarce as it is hard enough to find a nice 88 in circulation...but there is still a chance of finding one in a nice memorial set. We have been discussing the scarcity of the D, yet there have been more dies identified than for the P ?
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 Posted 02/12/2011  9:55 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add liveandievarieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Check out http://www.lincolncentresource.com/...988RDV6.html

This should give some clarity on the subject. There are no maybees for this variety....Some of the FG initials are stonger than others on the normal coin, but when you find the transitional rev, the G will stick out like a sore thumb.
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 Posted 02/12/2011  10:02 pm  Show Profile Check Maineman750's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Maineman750 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes..I use that link quite a bit...(it is not up to date as there are now (5) dies for P and (8) for D)....when you see my pic ..you'll understand...as I said...I've already found two in circulation..the D coin in question may have had some polishing or taken a light hit on the bottom of the G.
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