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Difference between MS-64 and MS-65

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 Posted 09/16/2011  6:21 pm Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add zeus to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

I was looking through the Red Book and noticed a huge jump in value from ms-64 ($300) to ms-65 ($1700) for a particular coin. The jump from lower ratings 60, 63 was much smaller ($200, then $250).

I would think that since there is just a 1 grade jump, that it would be a smaller jump in value. What is so significant for that jump to 65 that makes that coin so much more valuable? Is this the holy grail in ratings?

Obviously these values don't grow linearly... why not?

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 Posted 09/16/2011  6:49 pm  Show Profile Check biokemist6's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Simple explanation- coins get exponentially rarer as the grade increases. This does not necessarily mean that MS65 is a tough grade for all coins, some are exceedingly common at 65 but those particular coins may have a top end of MS67 or 68 where the value is many multiples of a 65.
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 Posted 09/16/2011  7:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Saruma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The difference is very minor. If you told us the coin in question someone may be able to give you a specific answer. The huge difference in price a single point can make has led a number of people to submit their coin over and over to the TPGs. Say the coin comes back MS64, a $300 coin. But if you crack it out of the holder and send it in again you may get a different grader, or even the same grader making a different judgement, who gives it a MS65. Now for the price of a submission or two you've added $1400 in value to the same coin.

I can pretty much guarantee you that if I was in the market for an MS grade of that coin I'd buy a 64 over a 65 any day. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference without a magnifying glass (if then) and I could get a lot of other nice coins for the $1400 I would save.
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 Posted 09/16/2011  9:11 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add PlumCrazy814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I was looking through the Red Book and noticed a huge jump in value from ms-64 ($300) to ms-65 ($1700) for a particular coin. The jump from lower ratings 60, 63 was much smaller ($200, then $250).



It would be good to know which edition of the RedBook you were referencing. I can't seem to locate a MS-64 in mine
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 Posted 09/16/2011  10:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am not inclined to buy MS 65 U.S. coins. The price jump irrespective of rarity is just too much for me.

With that sort of price difference between MS 64 and MS 65, the grading of the coin can be open to opinion when only minor imperfections are involved. TPG is essential IMO, in the purchase of MS 65 coins, which could even then could be challenged if large amounts of money are involved if a dispute arises over price.
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 Posted 09/18/2011  12:19 pm  Show Profile Check Libertad's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
-Because it's in a higher grade. Look at an MS-60 and compare it to a good AU-55/58 and tell me which one is more desirable based on eye appeal alone. However, certain collectors might prefer a toned MS-60/62 to a gem MS-65. MS-65, to me is just a category to make MS-64 look weaker by comparison, as it reflects the type of behavior displayed by the owner/custodian in relation to the preservion process this type of grade entails.
Does that help?
Could it not be said that AU grades are rarer than MS grades, since MS are preserved for their obvious eye appeal and AUs are mostly tossed back into circulation?
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Edited by Libertad
09/18/2011 12:21 pm
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 Posted 09/18/2011  3:58 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Quote:
It would be good to know which edition of the RedBook you were referencing. I can't seem to locate a MS-64 in mine

Makes little difference. Many of mine only have G, F, Unc and Proof. Oddly enough even the 2012 edition has that system used on pages 365, for example.
The original question though is basically why so much a jump from one grade to another. As far as I know it is probably based on that there are so many coins with a really small amount of wear including those right from a new roll. To find a coin with basically very little wear is not real common so the prices jump from one grade to another in those areas. Each jump in grade in the MS's is really a tuff call anyway. I suspect it really takes a good grading expert to see or note the differences in the upper MS Grades.
just carl
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 Posted 09/18/2011  9:51 pm  Show Profile Check BadThad's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Take a look at the price jump from 66 to 67 to 68 for come coins. It can go from like $200 to $3000. It all has to do with condition rarity. If there's 10,000 known in MS-64 and only 50 know in MS-65, the price jumps due to rarity.
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 Posted 09/22/2011  3:52 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BuffalosRock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm far from an expert, but I do think that MS65 can sometimes be "inflated" more than the rarity would suggest by the fact that it is where GEM status starts. Some/many seem to put an extra importance on collecting "GEM LEVEL" coins, particularly for non-modern coins. Thus I think there is an "extra spike" at MS65 on many coins that isn't just caused by their rarity/mintage numbers alone. But is also due to the "marketability" and desire for those GEM-status coins.

When such a "big jump" is at a lower level, then IMO it is probably entirely because the population of known coins in that grade are much much scarecer. Not sure if it is a type-o, but I've seen a couple cases where lower grade coins were listed as higher value than slightly higher graded coins of the same year etc. Might be a quirk in the population data, but it is a bit weird if you ask me! Next time I'll take a screenshot as I can never remember where and what I saw that way - but I have seen it a couple times. makes no logical sense that a higher grade would be worth less tho!

This subject is an interesting one tho. When "targeting" a grade you want of a desired coin, how much does the "sweet spot" before the JUMP IN PRICE LEVEL affect your target grade? On some coins it affects my desired grade A LOT. Say if the difference between AU50 and AU58 is small compared to a BIG "jump" to MS60 then I'd want AU58 as the best "bang for the buck" grade in that coin/year combo. Many say that if the pricepoint is not that big of a deal, definitely "splurge" for the MS65 or in gold at least MS63 as those grades tend to hold and increase in value over time much better than cheaper grades. I haven't done the analysis on how true that "rule of thumb" holds, but I'd bet they are right over time. rare get rarer, common stay common. Thus why "key dates" and such are in high demand typically and why GEM-level are at a premium - unless the particular coin has a very high mintage or high "keepsake rate". Thus why first year and last year are sometimes so much cheaper as so many more folks stored a roll away in their safe of those - compared to the in-betweens.

JMHO
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 Posted 09/22/2011  7:15 pm  Show Profile Check glenzy1's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add glenzy1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ever watch the Olympic 100 Meter (yard) race? A winner will win by a margin of .08 seconds or less! And that's for the coveted Gold medal. Now it's the same with coins! Just one grade point higher can mean the difference between a $1,000.00 coin or a $5,000.00 coin.

Glenn
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 Posted 09/22/2011  7:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littlemoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you take the opinion of TPG's as gospel as glenzy1 doe's you can get messed up. However if money is no object go for it.
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 Posted 09/22/2011  9:43 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Penny Guy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On the question of what Red Book the OP is referring to, perhaps he was looking at the Professional Edition, which lists grades of 60,63,64,and 65. They also enclude BN and RD designations. Examining the TPG population reports can help us understand the available quantities of any specific coin in the upper grades. We also know the POP reports are not the most accurate information but the demand for the highest grades will and does drive prices to amazing levels.
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 Posted 09/23/2011  4:26 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just for fun I looked at the PCGS coin price listings for Lincoln Cents. The 1909S VDB in Red for a MS-66 is $15,750 and in MS-67 the price jumps to $90,000. Plus or minus a few cents of course.
just carl
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 Posted 09/23/2011  5:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add littlemoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Difference between MS-64 and MS-65 can be big bucks, so it comes down to what you gotta have in terms of numbers. .....lol
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