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Token Needing Identity | New England Shilling, Please Verify

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 Posted 10/05/2022  11:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for doing that
I'll post close-ups of the markings and the full coin.
In some other cases I have, markings can be identified to be known counterfeits.
It looks like a little copper can be seen.







Edited by Albert
10/05/2022 11:41 pm
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 Posted 10/05/2022  11:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm certainly no expert on this particular coin, but from comparing known examples to this one, it's a one look copy/counterfeit/fake. Lettering is way off and incorrect. It's a bit too "neat" and modernized. Lines of the E are way to straight. Curves of the N are not correct.

Edit: are the letters incuse? They look to be. If so, another mark against it.
Edited by Ty2020b
10/05/2022 11:35 pm
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 Posted 10/05/2022  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The letters are not incuse.
I've seen a number of images where they look that way.
Seems like I can make incuse come and go here & there among some postings with eye focus.
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 Posted 10/06/2022  12:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not an expert but it's definitely fake. Who/when/why, don't know. Compare it with real ones from the astounding Salmon collection and I'm sure you'll see that it's not real. https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/salmon/?page=1
Search Heritage archives for "new england shilling" for more examples, you'll see that most sold for 6 figures (sign up for a free login to see prices and larger images, well worth having). Early Wyatt copies have some value, but this isn't one of those either. I do admire the faker for getting some authentic-looking planchet cracks.
Edited by kbbpll
10/06/2022 12:52 am
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 Posted 10/06/2022  01:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks everyone for all the help.
I did more comparisons and made notes of the replies to write on the binder page.
Because it looks like maybe some copper showing, I'm guessing it could be 70% lead and 30% copper.
If those could be the alloy then SG would be 10.5
And my guess is that SG, being like silver, is no coincidence.
I think it was made to deceive with some degree of skill?

edit: I now see and understand how mine doesn't compare well at all when viewing the auctioned coins.
This enhanced closeup looks like the color of lead on the rim along with what looks like copper and some kind of silvering.

Edited by Albert
10/06/2022 02:20 am
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 Posted 10/06/2022  01:41 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Check the edge as there are a few modern copies of NE shillings going around that are stamped copy only on the edge, they are being sold as replicas made with hand-cut dies and hand struck on eBay in the past month. They are actually pretty darn good for being made in someones garage. There is a current discussion on them now at the C4 group.

Later I will try to get more info on them.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
10/06/2022 01:42 am
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 Posted 10/06/2022  02:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The edge is very thin with no visible sign of any stamping.
I guess I don't know what C4 group is.
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 Posted 10/06/2022  03:43 am  Show Profile   Check blargish's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I recently had the chance to examine an example at the Massachusetts Historical Society. I post the images below for comparison to highlight the differences in the punch style.



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 Posted 10/06/2022  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@blargish did you get to see their threepence and sixpence?
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 Posted 10/06/2022  12:16 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I guess I don't know what C4 group is.


C4 is short for the Colonial Coin Collectors Club or the main Colonial coin organization for fans of pre-federal coinage, State coinages and foreign coins used in the Americas from 1490s through the 1790's.

Great club and they put out a quarterly journal that is considered one of the top scholarly journals in our hobby along with the EAC (Early American Coppers) Club.

You can find many of their journals online for free at the NNP:
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/publi...etail/510357

and there is also slightly older the Colonial Newsletter:
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/publi...etail/511327

which is now part of the ANS ( American Numismatic Society) and published under the new title JEAN (Journal of Early American Numismatics):
https://numismatics.org/about-us/pu...ations/jean/
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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 Posted 10/06/2022  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is the eBay sale I was referring to from the discussion at the C4 group, discussion on this token/coin:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265903455760

the "COPY" was stamped on the edge. Even Christopher Salmon (expert on NE Silver), and most of the seasoned Colonial Coin dealers and collectors which weighed in on the comments were impressed with the quality. All from a guy hand cutting and making it in his garage. Definite skills indeed. Not dissimilar from the Gallery Mint reproductions that were made in the same vein (and with the same tools) as the coins they made reproductions of.

I couldn't remember which coin was made, and I had remembered it wrong as a NE Shilling not the Oak or Pine tree, (it was the Oak Tree), so not the same coin. Still a neat copy. And at least that one was not trying to be deceptive.

You might enjoy this post I made a little bit ago on the CCF reviewing Christopher Salmon's book on the Massachusetts Silver pieces, my review includes a lot of various links to other NE silver coinage information.

http://goccf.com/t/407299
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
10/06/2022 12:28 pm
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 Posted 10/06/2022  12:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seller has a bunch of various coins "made in 2022." Unfortunately that's a violation of ebay policy, which prohibits the sale of replica coins regardless of whether they're stamped COPY.
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 Posted 10/06/2022  7:34 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Unfortunately that's a violation of ebay policy


I even reported it, but as many coins as I do report (a lot mostly replicas) I only see one or two disappear and then only to return next week or in a few days, they just don't seem to care anymore, as long as they are getting fees.

One of the reasons (among a laundry list) I have almost quit using the site unless it's to purchase books and other items from sellers I have done business with previously.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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 Posted 10/06/2022  8:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One of the reasons (among a laundry list) I have almost quit using the site unless it's to purchase books and other items from sellers I have done business with previously

I don't like Ebay much either, there are too many things that continually go wrong. But, I would have a very hard time sourcing decent coins for decent prices if I didn't use Ebay. I will hang on for now.
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 Posted 10/11/2022  07:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A humble suggestion to our OP .... Take the piece to a dealer who owns an XRF metal analyzer. The results would be informative, methinks, and conclusive, perhaps.
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