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Authenticity Of 1881 Sovereign - Weight Slightly Below Standard

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 618Next Topic  
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Ireland
5 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  10:24 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add sharrar to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello All,

I'm a new investor in coins and realizing quickly how little I know, but it's a fascinating subject and I'm enjoying learning.

I recently purchased an 1881 full sovereign, Melbourne mint with the George and Dragon reverse. Also to note the coin is without the B.P stamp but this something I understand that is a known variance. The coin was described as EF40 and does appear to have only light wear (to my untrained eye anyway).

The seller seemed of good standing however this was an ebay purchase which I now know is a minefield and something I'll probably try to avoid in the future. One concern / question I have with the sovereign is the weight of the coin, which was lazily described as 8g within the description text but weighs in on my scales at 7.93g, which I understand is a little on the low side for a low wear coin. However I've also read on these forums that sovereigns can weigh in at slightly under 7.98g and this can be within acceptable tolerances.

Images are shown below and I would appreciate your thoughts on the coin, and I will hope that it is of good standing. Thanks All.



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United States
867 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  10:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add flag4 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


1881 Melbourne, nice coin. There is wear evident which would account for the weight loss. Did you get a good price?
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Canada
14686 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  10:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the CCF

Looks genuine. Don't forget that gold is a heavy so it doesn't take much
of a loss from wear to reduce the weight.
New Member
Ireland
5 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  10:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sharrar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Flag4 and JimmyD,

Many thanks for the fast replies and that's good news the coin looks genuine to you.
I did pay 390 - maybe I did overpay on this one? Although I bought more as a longer term investment.

Also it would be great if you could point out the worst areas of wear to my untrained eye? Do you think the seller was correct to say EF40 / VZ+ ?

Thanks again!
Edited by sharrar
01/22/2022 10:59 am
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United States
867 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  11:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add flag4 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In my opinion, more of a VF30 grade. Much circulation wear evident, particularly on the obverse. However it is a variety date which adds a bit to the value. The engravers initials BP for Benedetto Pistrucci are missing on the St. George reverse, (Marsh 103B). You did about right on the price.
Edited by flag4
01/23/2022 12:35 am
New Member
Ireland
5 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  3:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sharrar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Flag4 you've been very helpful, and it is much appreciated
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Australia
1107 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  5:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi sharrar and

Are you able to try photographing the coin again under better lighting, and focussed, as it's hard to see the detail?
Edited by coaster
01/23/2022 12:55 am
New Member
Ireland
5 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2022  06:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sharrar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Coaster,

I've uploaded two new pictures under a different light. I have found it quite hard to capture but hope this reveals better detail.





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Australia
19579 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2022  07:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To my eye it appears to be a Middle East copy, made in perhaps 20 or 21 ct gold.
The line at the inner edge of the rim denticles on both sides appears to be very uneven.

They were jingled** to obscure the fine design detail and reproduce wear. A small amount of gold per coin was also recovered from the jingle process. That appears to be evident in the pictures.

These things did, in fact, circulate throughout the Middle east, in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries, and were semi tolerated in the bazaars.

In about 1928, the British Government finally put an end to their circulation by flooding the market with a huge issue of genuine 1925 frozen date sovereigns, to save the reputation of the Sovereign as a bullion and trading coin, and continued to issue them for about another 15 years, as needed.

**A process where a handful of coins were placed in a leather pouch and bounced up and down together at the end of a long spring.
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United States
112247 Posts
New Member
Ireland
5 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2022  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sharrar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the analysis sel_69l - it seems I may have to trash this one

The detail seemed quite good to my inexperienced eye, at least compared to some fakes I've seen photographed across the web (I guess the 1st pictures I uploaded fooled the others on the thread also!!).

One quick question. The coin was sold as the unusual variant of having no B.P stamp. From what I have read whilst an unusual variance it doesn't seem to affect the price very much at all (from what I can see). I wondered why would a counterfeiter choose to copy a coin, where most purchasers would expect to see the B.P stamp, without one?

Just in case of any camera flash or limitations of my camera I've took final pics today in natural light. Hopefully someone out there might think the coin is ok but with wear?



Edited by sharrar
01/24/2022 1:48 pm
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Australia
750 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2022  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Basil to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
To my eye it appears to be a Middle East copy, made in perhaps 20 or 21 ct gold.


No expert on Sovereigns but I agree,the Reverse just doesn't look correct to my eye.
As an aside a Oz. Squash Player in the 1960's came back from a Tournament in the Middle East with a shoe box full of locally(Turkey?) minted Sovereigns,they would be all out there somewhere even thou. most Sydney dealers would not touch them.
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Australia
1107 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2022  11:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It just goes to show how hard it is to give a definitive answer without having a coin in hand!

For comparison, below is a view of the sword as pictured in each of the OP's photos and then compared with Numista https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces9310.html



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Australia
750 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2022  05:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Basil to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
**A process where a handful of coins were placed in a leather pouch and bounced up and down together at the end of a long spring.


Yes,guy who was stealing the $2 Coins from the RAM(Canberra,Aust.) in the 1990's put them in a plastic screw top jar and ran them thru the wash cycle on his Mothers washing machine to induce wear.
Jungle out there.....

https://www.NGCcoin.uk/news/article...-Sovereigns/

https://goldsovereigns.co.uk/sovere...century.html

https://www.drakesterling.com/news-...d-sovereigns
Edited by Basil
01/25/2022 5:52 pm
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1992 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2022  01:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mr T to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One quick question. The coin was sold as the unusual variant of having no B.P stamp. From what I have read whilst an unusual variance it doesn't seem to affect the price very much at all (from what I can see). I wondered why would a counterfeiter choose to copy a coin, where most purchasers would expect to see the B.P stamp, without one?


The BP is subject to die fill - maybe the coin they used to create the die had a partially/fully filled BP already, or maybe as part of preparing the die the BP got filled.
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