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A Rare 1718 One Shilling

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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
917 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2022  05:32 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TobyJ to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I picked this up for an absurdly low price, I won't tell you how much. What do you make of the grade? I'll send it into NGC and see what they make of it.

NGC Catalogues it as weighing 6.02grams and this one weighs exactly 5.97grams.



Bedrock of the Community
Australia
19692 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2022  06:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The date of 1718 has me scratching my head.

I cannot find this date listed in any of the specialist catalogues on British coins that I have.

Rare it may? be.
It certainly needs to be authenticated.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4493 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2022  07:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My Seaby "Standard catalogue of British coins" lists a shilling from 1718, and it is not rare.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
917 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2022  07:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TobyJ to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the replies. I put rare as I cannot find the same date currently listed on ebay or sold which I don't find happens too often. I've since checked Heritage Auction sale prices and yes I agree it is not rare as there are a seven sold on there. NGC lists $900 at XF. It has sold on Heritage for around $1000 in MS with a top sale price of $1840 in a MS62. I think this makes VF to XF (US grading) but I am not very good at grading UK coins.
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United States
2394 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2022  07:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First bust, Roses and Plumes in angles, KM 539.1, S3645
XF-40 or 45 (US)
The portrait seems weakly struck, perhaps due to a rusted die.
Light hay marking on both sides.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
461 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2022  1:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnConduitt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's on Numista, where it's clearly much less common than 1723, but not necessarily rare https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces13074.html

The prices at Heritage are usually exponential at the top end of grading, since US collectors are very keen on having 'top pop', even if that doesn't mean much to anyone else.

The haymarking won't harm it's value much, but the weak portrait will, regardless of grade.
Edited by JohnConduitt
01/23/2022 1:23 pm
Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
3964 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2022  03:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Princetane to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not rare, 1718 is one of the common dates, I think its because of the varieties - SSC, roses and plumes etc that some get confused.

Also many still confuse the first 2 Georges and assume its the 2nd as his coins are more common.

A very nice coin, clean and with a light weak striking in the centre of the tails. Coin is the Roses and Plumes type indicating silver from the Pit and "seacoale (sic medievalistic spelling) company".

Grade would be a high VF (British grading) - getting close to EF but well short. It is a less common ruler and coin and miles ahead of my George I shillings!
Loving Halfcrowns. British and Commonwealth coins 1750 - 1950 and anything Kiwi.
If it's round, shiny and silvery I will love it.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
917 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2022  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TobyJ to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sent it to NGC as I wanted it slabbed and authenticated, as it is a lifelong investment afterall, and it came back AU55. Very interesting.


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United Kingdom
639 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2022  6:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

If this has come back to you as AU55, which I believe equates to UK AEF, then, in my opinion they have overgraded. The obverse is very fine, maybe, at a push, good very fine, the reverse is near very fine, plus you have all that hay marking which knocks the eye appeal down a notch or two.
Still though a nice coin, but I do often despair at the grading these third party businesses assign.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
639 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2022  7:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's an example graded by London Coin Auctions as overall very fine, which equates to US AU50, and which, lacking the hay marking, has more eye appeal.


Edited by Hogarth
03/25/2022 7:18 pm
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Australia
19692 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2022  8:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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United States
23752 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2022  8:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
it came back AU55.


Always nice to have this information to help folks calibrate their eyes. Thx for closing the loop on this thread.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Valued Member
United Kingdom
461 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2022  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnConduitt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If this has come back to you as AU55, which I believe equates to UK AEF, then, in my opinion they have overgraded. The obverse is very fine, maybe, at a push, good very fine, the reverse is near very fine, plus you have all that hay marking which knocks the eye appeal down a notch or two.
Still though a nice coin, but I do often despair at the grading these third party businesses assign.

Wouldn't that be net grading? I understand many want the grade to cover eye appeal and other problems, but the Sheldon grading scale refers solely to wear and damage through circulation.

If the problems with this coin are a weak strike, Die Deterioration and haymarking (i.e. they were introduced during production), its 'grade' (level of wear) is AU every day of the week.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
530 Posts
 Posted 04/12/2022  07:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zookeeperz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Absolutely Correct John there is a stark difference between quality of strike to circulation wear. Not many can tell the difference. You will find this era well from Charless II through George II Weakly struck coins were more common than well struck coins . In fact there is a massive premium for the latter
Pillar of the Community
New Zealand
3964 Posts
 Posted 04/12/2022  11:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Princetane to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree, looking at my 1660s to 1760s coins, I think the quality of the striking and shape was extremely high in the Cromwell/Charles era and got progressively worse.

My James II and William and Mary Halfcrowns are not very round and despite all the wear look poorly finished next to Charles II coins.

By the time of William's recoinage (1696 - 1701), some of the striking by the provincial mints (Like my 1697 Exeter half crown) was quite sloppy, yet it picked up during Queen Anne and stayed quite good through G1, but the G2 and G3 early coins are quite sloppy, bad strikes, off centre like that 2nd coin above and die wear. The 1718 coin in the centre has a weak strike, but otherwise is a quality made product. Yet my 2 G1 shillings, despite their wear are poorly struck, uneven planchets etc

I think by the time of Croker (Who was in the mint in the 1720s - 1740s), they had got sloppy and many of the Lima pieces were good - but it got sloppy afterwards. Have you noticed the 1757/58 shillings and sixpences are quite ovoid and uneven and its not suprising most are worn badly despite their long use. Some of the other later 1730s,40s and the 1750/51 coins are pretty badly done too.

The 1763 Northumberland shillings and 1787 coins almost looked phoned in next to the quality strikings under Old Rowley the Merry Monarch (The British amongst us will get that reference).

Seriously, some of those Cromwell coins/patterns almost look 19th century, they are so well done - perfectly round planchets and well struck (I mean the later ones, not the Breeches money).

Finally I think in 1816/17 when people saw the new coinage - they would have nearly fainted as those coins were 100000% improvement on what came before and the quality in my opinion only dropped during the industrial outputs of Queen Victoria coins by the 1850s.
Loving Halfcrowns. British and Commonwealth coins 1750 - 1950 and anything Kiwi.
If it's round, shiny and silvery I will love it.
Edited by Princetane
04/12/2022 11:54 pm
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
917 Posts
 Posted 04/13/2022  3:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TobyJ to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Princetane, what a wonderfully informative post. Thanks for that. It is posts such as yours that are what I love about this forum. This is a wonderful 300 year old coin, that I will hold onto for a long time and pass down to my little daughter one day.
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