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The Coin That Started A Raging Internet Debate: 1924 Peace Dollar, You Versus NGC

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 Posted 08/15/2022  06:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I as well missed the raging internet debate of 2009.

The coin is not at all attractive and I say no higher than MS63 given the bag hits, chatter and obverse fingerprint. Toning looks like dried indigo ink, and just as ugly IMO.
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 Posted 08/15/2022  08:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When first looking at the images I thought MS 65, max.

But after reading all the comments I will say the grade on the holder is MS 66. (I wonder if this coin is better looking in hand than on our screens?)

Although it has some color in the toning, I don't see it as particularly attractive and, technically anyway, think it should have been a max of MS65.
Small E-W nicks on the cheek, hair, and field in front of the eye are what stand out to my eye. In hand, the fingerprint may have been overlooked with the dark smudged toning going on.

Remember graders generally look at the coin in hand, without a scope or loop at first, to determine a grade. It isn't mandatory to even put it under a loop. We have the benefit of an image that can be magnified.
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Edited by Petespockets55
08/15/2022 08:13 am
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 Posted 08/15/2022  08:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
butt ugly toning and surfaces. I'm going to say NGC graded it MS66 but it should not be higher than MS63 and one reason I dont like toned coins. they may look pretty at one point in their life but you have no idea how they will look decades later. I'm getting this one probably didnt look this bad when it was slabbed.
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 Posted 08/15/2022  09:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not attracted to toned coins, have none in my collection. To each their own. MS62
Edited by livingwater
08/15/2022 09:33 am
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 Posted 08/15/2022  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Instinctively, I'll say MS-64, but I don't care for it at all.
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 Posted 08/15/2022  10:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A very non-expert guess of MS64. Could be higher but I think there's too much scratches for that.

I agree, the "toning" absolutely kills any eye appeal it must have had. And the camouflaged reverse lettering is almost unbelievable; it took me a while to figure out where UNUM was, it's so well hidden among the splotches.

TBH the overall vibe is "this probably wasn't cleaned but the way those surfaces look it might have been less ugly if it was". To borrow some terminology, strike 4/5, surfaces 1/5.
(...Probably actually surfaces 2/5 but it depends on what the real lower end of the scale looks like. And on whether 0/5 is a valid grade, for that matter.)
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 Posted 08/15/2022  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TobyJ to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had a good study of this before I looked at any responses, and I give it MS65. I don't know the coin and don't know anything about it. The toning is pretty ugly but some people like that so I don't know if that bumped up eye appeal or bumped it down. It is hard for me to tell the difference between toning and light damage (contact marks.) However, I do see some very small rim damage which should pull down the grade. I've counted at least 10 cuts to the obverse but the lustre seems all there under the toning. The reverse has some small cuts but is mostly quite clean. If this has gone any higher than MS65 then I'd like to know why really as there clearly is damage. I've seen plenty MS66 and MS67 grades and you are hard pressed to find any cuts like are on this one let alone any real damage at all. MS66 or higher should pretty much look like it was brand new, ALMOST. I'm quite excited to see the grade for this one.

I don't think it can be as low as 63, as I have a few in 63 that I am comparing to and they have much more marks on than this one, although this one's cuts seem fairly deep. I'll get my popcorn ready.
Edited by TobyJ
08/15/2022 1:33 pm
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 Posted 08/15/2022  2:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MS63 for me. Attractively toned Peace dollars are few and far between and this is not one of them in my opinion.
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 Posted 08/15/2022  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Check 52Raymo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 52Raymo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Beat by the ugly stick.
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 Posted 08/16/2022  4:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fenton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
65 but I don't like the toning much and seems to be a fingerprint on the obverse too. Probably a "buy the coin not the holder" situation here.
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 Posted 08/16/2022  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jaobler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Found it in an auction archive from earlier this year. For what the buyer paid they could have purchased a blast-white, intensely lustrous MS-66 example with wonderful eye appeal.
Maybe when your collection reaches a certain level you just have to get something different.....
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 Posted 08/17/2022  05:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheColorofMoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The aesthetics of the coin (and the others in the hoard) were not relevant to the debate. Lots of people think toned coins are ugly. And there are a lot of ugly toned coins. That is not the issue.

NGC MS 65

CAC agrees with NGC.

In-the-hand, the coin appears much better than the NGC images.




The above coin was part of a hoard of attractively toned Peace dollars (about 7) was discovered in a leather pouch in 2008/2009. Subsequently, they were all certified from MS64 to MS66 by NGC and auctioned by Heritage. (Some have been re-auctioned by HA multiple times.)

The controversy that erupted over these Peace dollars was because David Hall - referring to this hoard - said categorically "Any Peace dollar with rainbow toning is artificially toned." This angered a lot of people out there because it is a nonsensical statement. Also, people that supported NGC took it as David Hall taking the opportunity to make a low-brow attack on NGC.

I remember arguments at coin shows about the originality of these Peace dollars - as well as the notion that Peace dollars cannot be vividly toned. Then, of course, people that collect toned Peace dollars were also offended. There certainly was a lot of online heated debate.

Some of the online debates were absurd. There were people that had never set foot in a coin show with limited experience, claiming they could tell that the maroon\auburn areas were active corrosion. Typical internet stuff.

Had David Hall not been a prominent force behind PCGS, then his post would have meant nothing and no debate would have happened.

https://www.PCGS.com/News/Coinfacts...cially-Toned
Edited by TheColorofMoney
08/17/2022 05:38 am
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 Posted 08/17/2022  05:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TobyJ to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not gonna lie, pretty stoked that I called that and I don't disagree with the grade. The rainbow toning controversy I'm not really experienced enough to comment on whether it is artificial or not.
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 Posted 08/17/2022  10:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As far as I'm concerned, this is not even slightly rainbow toned, there's no rainbow, it's basically all brown except for the greenish-blue bit at the edge. This coin has no relevance on whether rainbow toning is artificial because it does not have rainbow toning.
I am legitimately surprised that anyone thought it did; does the term have a different definition in silver dollar collecting that I wasn't aware of?

If it was cupronickel (or copper) I'd have called it rusted. I'm pretty sure I've seen badly tarnished coins with very similar coloring (to the slab pics), and AFAIK they were significantly oxidized. Of course silver doesn't really oxidize like that, so it's probably a different tarnishing process.
Doesn't look artificial to me (tarnish happens), but I understand the people who thought it was corroded; as I already mentioned, AFAIK corrosion on cupronickel can be pretty much the same greenish shade.

On the OP photos there's a lot of distracting lines everywhere; metal flow, contact marks, fingerprint splotches, it all comes together to a fairly ugly view. (Especially on Liberty's cheek, poor lady.)
The slab pics make the surfaces look much cleaner (especially on the obverse), but also make the greenish area look a lot more like oxidized copper. (And the UNUM part is even more lost than on the OP pics.)
Not a coin I'd buy even if I had the money, but I know there are people who think tarnished silver is awesome.
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 Posted 08/17/2022  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheColorofMoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
january1may

David Hall considers the toning you see on the Peace dollar as "rainbow" toning; the color only need contain a little bit of red, green, blue, yellow, orange, etc in it. There does not need to be a "spectrum of the rainbow" present. We're not talking about unicorn or leprechaun rainbows here.

The OP's photos are the photos supplied by Heritage Auctions of the "leather pouch sale."

Anybody can research the David Hall debacle and debate involving these coins online. It is all there frozen in internet history for posterity.

It doesn't matter if the toning was rainbow or not. It was both absurd and inappropriate for David Hall - the main person behind PCGS, the main competitor to NGC - to step forward and say that any colored Peace dollar with red, green, blue, etc is artificially toned.
Edited by TheColorofMoney
08/17/2022 12:06 pm
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