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The Coin That Started A Raging Internet Debate: 1924 Peace Dollar, You Versus NGC

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 Posted 08/17/2022  12:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Anybody can research the David Hall debacle and debate involving these coins online. It is all there frozen in internet history for posterity.
Unless it's on CU and they decide to poof it.
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 Posted 08/17/2022  12:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticsFTW to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Boom!

I'm glad I was the FIRST person that guessed it right, everyone else after me just followed suit
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 Posted 08/17/2022  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I still think this coin is a 63. Those scratches across the face are very distracting, and additional chatter all over the coin. A 65 Peace dollar should look extremely nice. I disagree with NGC and John at CAC.
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 Posted 08/17/2022  2:06 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I still think this coin is a 63. Those scratches across the face are very distracting, and additional chatter all over the coin. A 65 Peace dollar should look extremely nice. I disagree with NGC and John at CAC.


That's one of the problems trying to assign a grade from images only. NGC and CAC saw the coin in it's true form, not one angle, two-dimensional images.
ANA #R3154474
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 Posted 08/17/2022  2:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting reveal.

As I mentioned, the grader might not have put the coin under a loop. Most of the time, they look at it in hand to assess a grade in less than 15 seconds. And with the charcoal toning, the nicks and dings may have all but disappeared. it seems like toning or brown copper make for a more forgiving grade. The oxidation seems to affect the reflection of light to the viewer and bag marks aren't as visible.

(Guess I should have stayed with my initial grade. Dagnabbit and consarn it!)
Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
Valued Member
United States
127 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2022  3:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheColorofMoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's one of the problems trying to assign a grade from images only. NGC and CAC saw the coin in it's true form, not one angle, two-dimensional images.


Grading by picture is just something to pass the time. There is some value in it - afterall, we are looking at coins from one perspective.


Quote:
Probably a "buy the coin not the holder" situation here.


Don't people buy the coin here and not pay any attention to what any TPG says?

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 Posted 08/17/2022  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hokiefan_82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The last pictures make the coin look better than the Heritage pics. As others mentioned, that's one of the weaknesses of assessing grades from a photo as opposed to actually having the coin in hand.

As pointed out, toning isn't relative to the debate, but as we all know what is considered "ugly" or "attractive" toning is a very personal decision. And, as in my case, those opinions can definitely change over time!

A decade ago I wanted my mint-state silver coins to be blast white, but my views on that have changed. While I still buy white coins if they have great luster I now have quite a few heavily toned coins, particularly 19th and early 20th century proof silver, which I find drop-dead gorgeous. However, I guarantee that if I put any of them up for a vote it would be heavily divided on the opinion of desirability and attractiveness.
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 Posted 08/17/2022  4:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's one of the problems trying to assign a grade from images only. NGC and CAC saw the coin in it's true form, not one angle, two-dimensional images.

Very good point, we as photo graders can't twirl the coin in the light to get a genuine feel of wear or surface quality. On a higher MS coin, contact marks are the most important thing to assess. So, we can get close enough on providing an accurate evaluation for a MS coin only from photos. This is true unless we are going by market grading standards, as eye appeal would affect grade.


Quote:
Don't people buy the coin here and not pay any attention to what any TPG says?

Always!!
Valued Member
United States
127 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2022  5:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheColorofMoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As pointed out, toning isn't relative to the debate, but as we all know what is considered "ugly" or "attractive" toning is a very personal decision.


Some people here are far too focused upon what the coin looks like, and simply ignore David Hall's unprofessional position on toned Peace dollars.

What the coin looks like is not important. Heck, the grade it was assigned is not important either. What is important is that the coin is NOT artificially toned (AT). The coin has original surfaces.
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Taiwan
383 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2022  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Everest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How did this go from guess the grade to a personal attack on David Hall as being unprofessional.? David Hall is very much the professional. It was his opinion only. Deal with it. PCGS was grading grading toned Peace dollars during the David Hall era as they do now.
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 Posted 08/17/2022  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheColorofMoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How did this go from guess the grade to a personal attack on David Hall as being unprofessional.?


The thread was always about David Hall and his actions back in 2009. Read all the posts (and go to the links provided); this was never merely about guessing the coin's grade.

David Hall didn't offer just a personal opinion. He made a professional statement that was wrong as a means to take a low-swipe at NGC. Hall's statement about Peace dollars is still on PCGS CoinFacts and a link to it is provided earlier in this thread.

Anybody that says any Peace dollar with red, blue, green, or yellow on it is artificially toned is making an asinine statement. Well, that is exactly what David Hall said.

And just think about all the people who purchased toned Peace dollars residing in PCGS holders only to be told by one of the main people behind PCGS that their coins are artificially toned ?

lol
Edited by TheColorofMoney
08/17/2022 6:30 pm
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 08/17/2022  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ijn1944 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So, where is this conversation heading?
Valued Member
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127 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2022  6:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheColorofMoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So, where is this conversation heading?


According to David Hall, ANY Peace dollar with red, blue, green, yellow, etc on it, residing in ANY TPG holder, is artificially toned (AT).

lol
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 Posted 08/17/2022  6:32 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't remember a "Leather Pouch Sale" from Heritage the time I remember this particular coin, was from the Heritage sale #60257 in April 2022 - the "Attractively Toned Coins Showcase Sale"


It was lot #93174 and IMO one of the more ugly Peace dollars I've come across over the years, there were a few attractive examples that sold for nearly identical money (around $1000) in that sale like this one...


MS65+

or even this low grade MS62...


I'd take either of them over the one discussed. By that's just me and honestly I'd spend my money on one of the many wonderfully colored toned coins in that sale. Many of the Indian cents were sublime. Here is the entire sale.

https://coins.ha.com/c/search-resul...ionNo-051517
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Valued Member
Taiwan
383 Posts
 Posted 08/17/2022  7:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Everest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It most certainly is about guess the grade. That is what you asked in your first sentence after the header ( Please submit your grade ). People were doing just that until you hijacked your own thread. Maybe you should start a new thread. Something along the lines of. Why I disagree with David Halls statement concerning toned Peace dollars
Edited by Everest
08/17/2022 7:25 pm
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