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1864 2 Cent Piece Die Clash - Clashed With Indian Cent FS-1901

 
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 Posted 08/17/2022  11:36 pm Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This is another one I didn't spot myself but was given the green light to pick it up. It was a buy it now so didn't have to wait for an auction to end to find out if anyone else had seen it.

The coin is clashed with an Indian Head cent, and don't ask me the details on that as I'm certainly no expert in crazy clashes like this one. But my problem with the coin is that like so many coins these days from dealers it's been tampered with. In this case it has a thin film of oil on it, which looks a lot like Verdi-Care. I need to get it off the coin to get it to grade straight without getting an "altered surfaces" label. Also, this is a pretty light clash and the oil makes it nearly impossible to see the clash as it smooths things out.

I very much do not like messing with with expensive coins, but it won't grade straight with the oil on it so it's gotta come off. Any help would be appreciated.

1864 2 cent piece die clash - clashed with Indian Head cent FS-1901



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 Posted 08/17/2022  11:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yikes, I'm having trouble seeing any evidence of clashing at all.
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 Posted 08/17/2022  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed. The clash is just about impossible to see, although it's certainly that die with exactly the right obverse and reverse markers. Thinking that the oil is smoothing things out and that the clash would be better visible without it.
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 Posted 08/18/2022  02:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHunter27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Shame about the oil. On the plus side, this is actually about as strong as the clash gets. It's a solid example of the variety but too bad the grade might be impacted.

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 Posted 08/18/2022  04:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am guessing acetone would remove the oil. Not seeing a clash and not understanding how that would happen anyways
John1
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 Posted 08/18/2022  08:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Boy, I can't see anything.
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 Posted 08/18/2022  08:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your example appears to be a later die state than those shown on the PCGS coinfacts. That radial die crack through the date does not appear on any BN, RB or RD examples. Nice score!
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 Posted 08/18/2022  09:21 am  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks folks! And I did think I saw that die crack through the date on at least one slabbed coin but no time to check right now.
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 Posted 08/18/2022  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have 4 or 5 of these now from VF to MS63RB slabbed. The Partial D serif on the reverse in UNITED is one marker, I can't really see the obvious die crack between the N & T of CENTS.

Other obverse die markers are the circular die chip above the U in TRUST a die scratch thru top of U, another die scratch below the 4 in the date to the denticles at the edge. The die crack through the date eventually goes from the denticles through the 6 in the date and up to the ball of the shield, I can almost see the faint part of the crack in the photo near the ball at the bottom of the shield.

The reverse has bold outlining of UNITED S-----CA and CENTS the reverse die crack goes upwards from the wreath and then turns downward just under the E of CENTS following the bust of the Indian cent profile. The clash isn't on all of this die variety called 2B by Frank Leone.

There are examples of this die pair/variety without the clash with the Indian cent on the reverse, the clash happened later. I don't know if the IHC clash would be visible on coins grading much below VF or F15, and since the clash is not on all examples of this die pair the markers alone are not enough to call it the clashed IHC variety.

I'm confident this coin would be easy to see the IHC profile with the right angle of lighting. I don't see the clash on this example with this photo.

The same obverse die is used on die pair 2N and was not clashed. The reverse die was used with another obverse die 16B which shows signs of the IHC clashing, but is much older in it's life and is full of many die cracks all over the reverse.

If you can see the IHC profile then it's for sure the variety, if not then it's just an early strike using the pairing of the 2N dies.

To me the coin looks AU - acetone might help and shouldn't change the color if it's Blue Ribbon/CARE or Verdi-Care. You could ask BadThad about the affect of acetone on Verdi-Care since he is the person that formulated Verdi-Care and sells it.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
08/18/2022 6:12 pm
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 Posted 08/18/2022  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thought I'd share the diagnostics for the 1864LM Two Cent Piece clashed with the Indian cent on Reverse aka FS-1901 (FS-001.8)

The FL is Frank Leone from his numbering system in the "Longacre's Two Cent Piece 1864 Attribution Guide" 1997

Here is the first die marriage pairing FL-2B not the die clashed example, also has a repunched date (seen West on the 1 and 4)...


Then the FL-2N same obverse die different reverse die, also not the die clash example, the ED and S in UNITED STATES are extremely weakly struck and there is no die crack under the CENTS on the reverse...


Finally the FL-16B different obverse die same reverse as the FL-2B only more advanced in die state with more cracks, this is the one that became clashed with the Indian Head cent. The FL-16B also has a re-punched date quite obvious on the 1 to the left (West) side and also the 4.

The clash happened in a mid die state on the B reverse so the heavier cracks will appear only on the later die state examples, but there should be hints of the start of the die failure all over the reverse (likely caused by the clashing with a smaller obverse IHC die) and not only clashing both, but damaging the reverse die B in the process.


Hope these illustrations help, I do not show the outlined top serif on the "D" of UNITED nor the Longacre's doubling of the various letters on the reverse, which occurs on all threee die marriages.

The Clashed FL-16B example also has rust spots which are visible on the reverse die as light depressions around the top of the wreath and the "ES" in STATES. I did try to make it as clear as possible to help in the aid of finding out which one of the 3 1864LM examples you may have, and if it is the more valuable clashed IHC variety.

I believe the example shown in the photograph is the FL-2B and may not show the clash with the IHC though I could be wrong as so many of the markers on the early die states of the FL-16B need to be seen with the coin in hand rotating it through the light at various angles. The FL-2B could be clashed, though I have never seen an example of it, leading me to think the clash happened only after the obverse die was changed out from Die 2 to die 16. I have only examined a few photos and my own examples of the clash and they are all the FL-16B die marriages.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
08/18/2022 10:32 pm
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 Posted 08/18/2022  11:36 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow! Thanks for all that and certainly gives me some homework. I will note that the obverse has all the markers for FL-2B and FL-2N but has die crack under CENTS so by this must be FL-2B. But it also does have the rust spots below the E of STATES. Eventually I will soak it, but haven't decided in what yet. Thinking to start with acetone as least likely to muck with the coin. But just got in a quite large error collection that needs looking at so will put this one on the back burner for a couple days.

Again, huge thanks for the reply! I'm mostly a modern collector and really learned a lot about how details some of the work done is on these older coins.
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 Posted 08/20/2022  2:15 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just to be clear as I forgot to mention it though it should be obvious...

The Obverse die is a NUMBER

The Reverse die is a LETTER

in the classification ID from Frank Leone so each coin would need both a number and a letter in it's class ID. The coin in question was made from only 2 obverse and 2 reverse dies with different front to back pairings, even though there are 3 different coins. Hope that clears up any confusion the numbering system may be causing.

In 1864 there were far and away more coins minted (20 million) and the next year (1865) also a lot of coins were minted (18 million), from 1866 on to the demise of the Two Cent Piece in 1873 (a proof only year) the mintage dropped considerably in each consecutive year until the final circulation coins were struck in 1872, only 65,000 coins were made. Lots of die pairings for 1864 and 1865, with less pairing each year afterwards. Currently there are around 110+ die pairs classified for the year 1864, I'd guess around 70-85 for the year 1865, no idea on the rest of the dates, as I haven't looked at them as closely yet. We know there were at least 3 obverse hubs and 2 different reverse hubs used to create the series, the date was punched into the working dies by hand.

All Two Cent coins were produced at the Philadelphia mint.

The FL-2N is the rarest die marriage of the three, even tougher to find than the IHC clash on FL-16B, I still don't have one in my collection of die marriages. I have at least 4 slabbed and a raw IHC clashed FL-16B coins.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
08/20/2022 3:31 pm
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