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Token Needing Identity | New England Shilling, Please Verify

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Pillar of the Community

United States
1469 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2022  04:43 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I made note of a comment given about a different coin I posted saying it was too round.
I need to say I cropped this first as a square, then cropped it again as a circle to remove the square black background.
The piece itself isn't really as round as it looks here.




I left out data in my post:
It's 70.5 grains, 27mm and SG is 10.5

Thread title edited and thread moved to US Colonials forum - Sap
Edited by Albert
10/05/2022 09:00 am
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Australia
14799 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2022  07:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is a copy - presumably a copy - of a New England shilling, the earliest North American colonial coinage.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Canada
2686 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2022  10:27 am  Show Profile   Check Wade's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
best not crop any of the rim out, try using flood fill white, transparent background, or leave the background intact
Coin Collecting... "I'm in it for the money"
Pillar of the Community
United States
1469 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2022  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok yes, I agree and will do better on upcoming pictures.
It's just that I was getting a better image on black and not so good on white.
So how does the coin data compare?
The copy found on Numista has a much heavier weight.
And the weight of this piece is not so much different from what I have found so far compared to what is considered to be authentic.
The SG throws me off being 10.5 and 10.5 happens to match silver.
Makes me think someone did a very good job of making a piece to fool others?
This is one more specimen needing XRF results.
The piece does have irregular thickness and is somewhat bent.
Readings are a little over and a little under 1.0mm
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Australia
14799 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2022  11:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think we really need to get the US Colonial experts weighing in on this one, and they're not going to notice it when it's in a thread with the title "Token needing identity". I'm renaming the thread and moving it to the US Classic section.

Meanwhile, can you see if you can obtain a coin that hasn't been cropped round? cropping square is adequate, and cropping round doesn't save that much disk space.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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United States
1469 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2022  11:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for doing that
I'll post close-ups of the markings and the full coin.
In some other cases I have, markings can be identified to be known counterfeits.
It looks like a little copper can be seen.







Edited by Albert
10/05/2022 11:41 pm
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 Posted 10/05/2022  11:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm certainly no expert on this particular coin, but from comparing known examples to this one, it's a one look copy/counterfeit/fake. Lettering is way off and incorrect. It's a bit too "neat" and modernized. Lines of the E are way to straight. Curves of the N are not correct.

Edit: are the letters incuse? They look to be. If so, another mark against it.
Edited by Ty2020b
10/05/2022 11:35 pm
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United States
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 Posted 10/05/2022  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The letters are not incuse.
I've seen a number of images where they look that way.
Seems like I can make incuse come and go here & there among some postings with eye focus.
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United States
2411 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  12:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not an expert but it's definitely fake. Who/when/why, don't know. Compare it with real ones from the astounding Salmon collection and I'm sure you'll see that it's not real. https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/salmon/?page=1
Search Heritage archives for "new england shilling" for more examples, you'll see that most sold for 6 figures (sign up for a free login to see prices and larger images, well worth having). Early Wyatt copies have some value, but this isn't one of those either. I do admire the faker for getting some authentic-looking planchet cracks.
Edited by kbbpll
10/06/2022 12:52 am
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 Posted 10/06/2022  01:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks everyone for all the help.
I did more comparisons and made notes of the replies to write on the binder page.
Because it looks like maybe some copper showing, I'm guessing it could be 70% lead and 30% copper.
If those could be the alloy then SG would be 10.5
And my guess is that SG, being like silver, is no coincidence.
I think it was made to deceive with some degree of skill?

edit: I now see and understand how mine doesn't compare well at all when viewing the auctioned coins.
This enhanced closeup looks like the color of lead on the rim along with what looks like copper and some kind of silvering.

Edited by Albert
10/06/2022 02:20 am
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United States
9073 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  01:41 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Check the edge as there are a few modern copies of NE shillings going around that are stamped copy only on the edge, they are being sold as replicas made with hand-cut dies and hand struck on eBay in the past month. They are actually pretty darn good for being made in someones garage. There is a current discussion on them now at the C4 group.

Later I will try to get more info on them.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil Wat Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
10/06/2022 01:42 am
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United States
1469 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  02:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The edge is very thin with no visible sign of any stamping.
I guess I don't know what C4 group is.
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Canada
163 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  03:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I recently had the chance to examine an example at the Massachusetts Historical Society. I post the images below for comparison to highlight the differences in the punch style.



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 Posted 10/06/2022  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@blargish did you get to see their threepence and sixpence?
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9073 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  12:16 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I guess I don't know what C4 group is.


C4 is short for the Colonial Coin Collectors Club or the main Colonial coin organization for fans of pre-federal coinage, State coinages and foreign coins used in the Americas from 1490s through the 1790's.

Great club and they put out a quarterly journal that is considered one of the top scholarly journals in our hobby along with the EAC (Early American Coppers) Club.

You can find many of their journals online for free at the NNP:
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/publi...etail/510357

and there is also slightly older the Colonial Newsletter:
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/publi...etail/511327

which is now part of the ANS ( American Numismatic Society) and published under the new title JEAN (Journal of Early American Numismatics):
https://numismatics.org/about-us/pu...ations/jean/
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil Wat Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
United States
9073 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is the eBay sale I was referring to from the discussion at the C4 group, discussion on this token/coin:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/265903455760

the "COPY" was stamped on the edge. Even Christopher Salmon (expert on NE Silver), and most of the seasoned Colonial Coin dealers and collectors which weighed in on the comments were impressed with the quality. All from a guy hand cutting and making it in his garage. Definite skills indeed. Not dissimilar from the Gallery Mint reproductions that were made in the same vein (and with the same tools) as the coins they made reproductions of.

I couldn't remember which coin was made, and I had remembered it wrong as a NE Shilling not the Oak or Pine tree, (it was the Oak Tree), so not the same coin. Still a neat copy. And at least that one was not trying to be deceptive.

You might enjoy this post I made a little bit ago on the CCF reviewing Christopher Salmon's book on the Massachusetts Silver pieces, my review includes a lot of various links to other NE silver coinage information.

http://goccf.com/t/407299
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil Wat Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
10/06/2022 12:28 pm
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