Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

1793 Chain Cent Question

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 816Next Topic  
Valued Member
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  08:14 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add t25135 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello,

I had a question for the large cent gurus on the platform. What do you all see that made PCGS mark this as something that they were unable to authenticate as a chain cent? Just curious for my own knowledge. Do you all think that this would straight grade as a PO1 if it was in fact real?

Thanks!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2347160480...9SR7DolNP1YA

Pillar of the Community
United States
1118 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  08:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thecoinguy1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a $600 copper slick, I can't believe anyone would pay this amount, JMHO.
"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his house, his possessions are safe."
- Luke 11:21
Valued Member
United States
383 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  08:51 am  Show Profile   Check CarrsCoins's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i do not think that coin is authentic.

the thing that stands out to me the most is that the wear pattern is wrong. on legitimate examples the chain is quite bold and high relief. it will be clear even when the rest of the coin is worn off.
i like large cents. I currently have >225 Sheldon varieties and >235 middle date Newcomb varieties.
Valued Member
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  08:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t25135 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks! Much appreciated info.
Valued Member
United States
383 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  09:29 am  Show Profile   Check CarrsCoins's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
sure thing. ill add a few more thoughts. if authentic there is no way this thing would strait grade. its scratched and has had something soldered to the surface. also PCGS has already stated that they do not think it is authentic. they have authenticated quite a few chain cents in this range of condition. as a general rule "authenticity unverifiable" means this is fake but we cant say this is fake because then we cant legally mail it back to the person who sent it in.

regarding the price - if I thought it were real I would have bid quite a bit more than 600 on it. in this condition you are probably talking about a $2000 coin. there tends to be pretty healthy demand in that price range.
i like large cents. I currently have >225 Sheldon varieties and >235 middle date Newcomb varieties.
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1705 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  1:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For a minute there I thought I recognised an S-3, but now, honestly, in my opinion, there is nowhere near enough detail to identify or verify.

CarrsCoins, you mention that in your opinion a Chain cent in this very poor condition would still be worth about $2000. That seems quite high, but I am not up to date with large cent prices. And I thought my S-3 was worth about that, maybe a little more.

Pillar of the Community
United States
9078 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Could very well be a Gallery Mint replica coin or other replica that was ground down and artifically made to look worn. I don't like the looks of it either, despite the sellers guarantee of money back if not satisfied, I would pass on this one on any price over say $10 to 20, at that price it might be worth a gamble.

Would need to be more detail to show it's the "real deal" coin IMHO.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil Wat Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2˘ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Valued Member
United States
383 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  1:43 pm  Show Profile   Check CarrsCoins's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
you may be right about my price point germanicvs. I intended that as a retail number and didnt clarify that. I wouldnt pay that much for it. id probably bid ~1200 and ask ~2000 for something in that kind of condition. a decent low grade runs like 3-3.5k these days. they have taken a solid jump upwards in the past year or two.

i did a bit of looking to verify my thinking.
stacks sold a holed ag details for 2.5k in june. and an ugly po1 for 2.1k at the same time.
i sold one that wasnt too much better the the coin in question for $1800 in 2017. the one in my coin cleaning thread sold for a touch over 3k.

i concede that it is possible that it is real. I dont think it is. I wont spend my money on it. I saw the coin before this thread popped up. I reported it to ebay because I dont think its authentic.

in the event that it were real, I owned it, and I had a client looking for one I would still advise them to shop for a better example. the only selling point on this piece is the price.
i like large cents. I currently have >225 Sheldon varieties and >235 middle date Newcomb varieties.
Valued Member
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t25135 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS labeling it as "unable to authenticate" is a deal killer for me on buying something like this. In part that's because I would want to send it in to be slabbed. At the least, I can appreciate the seller disclosing the findings from PCGS. Other sellers might be tempted to "lose" that piece of info.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2438 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2022  4:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't see any problems with authenticity and no chance at a straight PO-1. I would not purchase a coin in that condition.
Valued Member
United States
117 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2022  09:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add apcol258 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
as a general rule "authenticity unverifiable" means this is fake but we cant say this is fake because then we cant legally mail it back to the person who sent it in.


I don't think there is anything legally preventing PCGS from mailing a counterfeit coin back to the submitter. If they thought it was counterfeit they would have sent it back with code 90 - counterfeit as opposed to code 86 - authenticity unverifiable, which they used for this coin.
Valued Member
United States
383 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2022  1:01 pm  Show Profile   Check CarrsCoins's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
my understanding is that they only use the counterfeit designation to denote known and identified counterfeits. something like an omega or a bay area counterfeit would receive that designation. the unverifiable designation is used when the thing cant be identified as a specific source. there are quite a few chain cents in slabs in the same condition as the one in question. following that the only other source is some sort of counterfeit. maybe I should have used a different term than "general rule" but I think it conveys the idea. if it were real they could identify it as such. to do so is solidly within PCGS wheelhouse.

i was told about the legal issue over some drinks by a friend who used to be a grader. ill look into the legal side and clean up my verbiage to be more precise.

edit:
ok.... so the basic issue is that it is not legal to possess counterfeit coins in the united states. its not the mailing, its the posessing and transmitting that are the issue. below is one of the more relevant federal laws. it gets kinda muddy at a state level.

once they call a coin counterfeit it causes a bunch of legal mumbo jumbo. its cleaner to say they cant verify the authenticity and leave it at that.

18 U.S. Code § 489 - Making or possessing likeness of coins

Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.
i like large cents. I currently have >225 Sheldon varieties and >235 middle date Newcomb varieties.
Edited by CarrsCoins
10/07/2022 1:21 pm
Valued Member
United States
117 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2022  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add apcol258 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Authenticity unverifiable basically means that PCGS doesn't want to put their guarantee on a coin that may or may not be genuine. If they slab a counterfeit coin, their guarantee states that they are on the hook financially for it. PCGS doesn't think that the coin in the OP's link is counterfeit, but just that it isn't worth the financial risk to them to slab it.

Depending on the intent, possession of a counterfeit is not illegal. There are quite a few collectors of contemporary counterfeit coinage, which is an interesting and important part of numismatic history.
Valued Member
United States
383 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2022  2:11 pm  Show Profile   Check CarrsCoins's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add CarrsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

PCGS doesn't want to tie their horse to this coin. they have chosen to authenticate numerous chain cents in similar state of preservation. why wont they authenticate this one when others that are similar get authenticated?

its illegal to own counterfeits. its also illegal to own a fake rolex or or a knock off prada handbag. people have them. doesn't make it legal. it is possible to cleared by the secret service to have such items. they love the people who educate the public about counterfeits. their agents are frequent attendees of ANA seminars on the subject.
i like large cents. I currently have >225 Sheldon varieties and >235 middle date Newcomb varieties.
Valued Member
United States
117 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2022  3:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add apcol258 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Possession of counterfeit coins is not necessarily illegal, it comes down to the intent. There has been quite a bit of discussion on this over the years and I suggest you educate yourself on the matter before making anymore false claims. It's a shame that so many contemporary counterfeit coins have been destroyed over the years by people who think this is true.
Valued Member
United States
86 Posts
 Posted 10/13/2022  10:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add burfle23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't believe any bidder didn't request an edge view; one of the hardest things to counterfeit on the early large cents is the edge...
  Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 816Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.





Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.41 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: