Is My 1732 Pillar Dollar Real?

Very interesting stuff everyone has brought up. I have learned a lot more about the history of the pillar dollar coin, and more specifically the probable history of the exact coins I have. It is interesting to know of all the different theories and such.

From the looks of it, I agree that I have, in all likely-hood, the Fisher reproductions of the coins. That being said, they are still remarkable and beautiful coins, even if probably not completely authentic. And I agree with what another poster said that there is still some numismatic value here to the right enthusiasts, given the alleged stories and history behind the coins, and given the grand allure that the pillar dollar has a tendency to create.

I also find interesting the one poster who said that Fisher took the badly eroded coins that were salvaged and melted them down, using that original silver to create his reproductions. That idea alone has me pretty excited in knowing that my coins, though probably not produced in the 1730's, at least could be made of the exact same silver originally used to mint 1732 coins. If true.... that is pretty cool!

I'm not sure anyone said THAT was indeed "likely", just that they are some sort of fakes... you really can't necessarily assume the Fisher link to be fact. All of the ACTUAL known Fisher fakes of this were "shipwreck" coins... with surfaces which exhibited salt water effect/accretions (or something pretending to be that). Your pieces obviously are not that. There is a possible connection based simply on the fact that your 1732 happens to match the "dies" on the Fisher 1732 from what I see. I haven't compared your 1733 to any of the 1733 he procured... I don't have many pics of those to go on, and there are more varieties of (known genuine) 1733 to compare them all too. So, your 1732 COULD be a "pre-treatment" version of a Fisher fake...presuming that Fisher had them crafted solely for his use. Or, they could also have been part of a larger grouping of pieces that Fisher simply bought SOME of, as Bob speculated... OR they could simply be from a later batch of fakes, where at least the 1732 happened to be copied from the earlier Fisher-era fake.

Studying the 1733 further might shed some light, or maybe someone might have more insight into who your relative may have dealt with along the way. Even so, the best you may ever do is having the knowledge that these MAY have be connected to those Fisher fakes.

As John Lorenzo will probably concur that is likely the result of surface leaching of copper. As a silver coin corrodes in salt water the copper being far more reactive leaches out of the coin. This normally gives a slightly higher surface reading for silver. There is also surface enrichment caused by the process of striking. If you combine leached silver and make planchets for striking - I could see that adding both effects might produce a reading over 95%.. John will have a better handle on the numbers but neither alone is enough to get 5% high.

Later this year I will be doing a paper on the L. Beck Silver Surface Enrichment process actually through my company (EDAX) for a Historical Type Material Analysis Conference. Beck's paper was on cast pieces and he showed silver being drawn to the surface creating high silver surface readings and a silver poor core. I am doing the study now with a 1964 Kennedy half dollar and a Carolus III 2 Reales from the El Cazador shipwreck. Interestingly the 1964 Silver Kennedy half when cut in half showed NO silver surface enrichment - so time is critical/essential to see this effect on struck issues. The 2R piece has already been confirmed with 98% Ag surface readings. It has yet to be cut up and tested throughout the inner areas both in composition and microstructure. Regal 8R's have demonstrated elevated readings like the dcap47 piece. When selling 8R pieces on E-Bay sometimes that turned out to be regal (legitimate) and not contemporary counterfeit I had to explain why my Ag readings were above 90% with some buyers - some commenting my XRF machine needs to be re-calibrated! <BG>. True - I just should have not said anything ... As realeswatcher has alluded to XRF is just the FIRST STEP - even with good Ag/Pt/Au you still need to compare/confirm the piece is genuine by its diagnsotics (i.e., edge devices, obverse/reverse comparison to regals). This can be difficult as we shall soon see in the Gurney book with the Birmingham Sheffield 8R's particularly in grades above AU since there is no breaks in the silver plating (i.e., normally seen on the edges by the denticles) and if in a TPG holder its impossible to determine unless cracked out and examining any underlying exposed debased alloy areas.
The two areas I am still looking at are the cast 1733/1734 Klippes which are debased silver issues with good Pt/Au levels and probable 20thC early products melted from good silver but debased and the 1811 Mexican Plain Edge Chihuahua cast pieces in which the PE piece have IDENTICAL Ag/Pt/Au levels to the regal edge 1811 pieces in my collection and from other sources. Suggesting the regal edge may have been added later in 1811 as an anti-counterfeiting measure. This later paper already submitted to the MNA people.

John Lorenzo
United States

Yeesh. Really, it's almost worse gossip to say well, I've heard something but I won't repeat it... that leaves the sky as the limit for how nefarious it could be. Obviously, as pertains to this case, the charges leveled were pretty severe and clear-cut.

But, reading between one line... in this case, there isn't any issue of altering dates... The Fisher pieces are either real or not real. But that's a good segue to this, something I found on eBay while puttering around on this topic. Purported to be an attributed shipwreck piece:

Plus the style of the "2" is all wrong. 1732 pillars have a distinctive 2 in the date. Another attempt by someone to create a rarity

Hello - welcome - the item you have is not really a coin it is a souvenir medal a commemoration of the Pillar dollar variety.

It is not silver and is likely worth less than a dollar as a curio.

Keep this threat for refereence
thank you all