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Chinese Kirin Province 'Flower Pot' Silver Coin..... 1898?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
1140 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2017  12:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Was it the ping and or weight you used to determine the coin is silver? Or were there any other methods? Is the coin 38.75mm diameter and 2.25mm thick? I have fakes that ping and weigh correctly. Please excuse my questions, I could tell if it is genuine if I had it in my hands, but it's harder to tell in an online forum.
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2017  3:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK.... here are more pics. I apologize for the lack of resolution but this is as good as it gets ATM.

@Albert.... I have a good feeling about this coin because of everything I have previously mentioned but also because I had purchased this coin from a reputable dealer and he swears on a stack it's an original. It is 38.7mm wide and about 2.1mm thick as best as I can tell. I am in the process of getting the Precious Metals Verifiyer so I'll know for sure then.

But based on what I have read.... there are several varieties of this type and even more from other provinces. The date is not found on the coin which makes it harder to track. The Chinese characters seem to pass muster.... I had someone read it for me to make sure. If this coin is fake I'm probably gonna loose all faith!





Pillar of the Community
United States
1140 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2017  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you can post pics similar to these (flat and straight on), then I can compare your coin to books and probably get better info. Basically, what I would do is see if there are any conflicts among the details. The coin I am showing has plenty and it is a known fake in my collection of Chinese fakes. Identifying small details can help get the year right.



New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2017  01:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Albert,

after looking at the pics you have posted, I have made several observations.

1. The English 'N', 'S' and '2' are too perfectly casted and pronounced. Same with the Mandarin letters on the reverse.
2. The Northern Chinese Manchurian writing is also too big for the coin in terms of space ratio.
3. The dots on top of the flower pot are too round. You basket stand is also different.

Don't feel too bad.... I have several Nikolai Roubles that were made the same way by the Chinese factories! Right now my only solace is that my coin is made of silver....... I was concerned with the spikes on the Dragon's tail. Some have 7 fins and others have 9. If you continue with the clouds, claws and fire ball..... you've got a headache that really isn't worth the pleasure of collecting the coin! I guess I'll know for sure once my metal verifier gets here. Thanks again for your thoughts.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1140 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2017  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Mongol words, rosettes, clouds, flaming ball, vase, flower petals, berries, dragon tail, and rows of scales all have seemingly endless variations and a large number of them are described in Kann. That's why I was wanting pictures of your coin posted in the same way mine was. I might be able to tell what year and what variety you have.
My coin is 30% low weight and not silver. English reverse is similar to Kann-512 and the Chinese obverse is similar to Kann-280. My dragon tail should have 7 spines instead of 9. The vase and flower are found on the 1895 coin. The spelling CAINDARINS is found on coins of 1902 and later. The number of rows of scales match the 1898 coin, but in that year, the vase and plant were different. So mine is a fabrication made up of assorted details found on different coins but not found on one single coin. I study and collect Chinese fakes and have documented hundreds of them.
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2017  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Albert,

I had no idea you have devoted so much time into this type of coin. I am glad for your time and opinion regardless. I only came across this piece without the desire to collect Chinese coins, I focus mainly on Russian coins(which has been copied by the Chinese too). But since the opportunity presented itself I dove into it.

Like I said..... the only thing giving me hope is that it is silver. I wouldn't put it past the Chinese to duplicate a coin in silver but they are more into mass productions so unless they were going to spend all that time and money on the die casting to just make a few... but who knows.

Here are enhanced pics..... forgive the crudeness of the quality. Hopefully this helps.



Pillar of the Community
United States
1140 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2017  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not enough clarity for me to tell. It looks like one of the 1898 varieties, but not sure if Kann-283 or one of the 284s or 285s.
I guess someone will just have to look at it with special attention to the rows of scales, flames and clouds.
If you could find someone that as Kann, then you could read each variety line by line and match the details with Kann's written description.
Edited by Albert
06/08/2017 6:37 pm
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2017  2:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Albert,

I'll keep you posted on what I find out about the authenticity of this coin. Thanks again.

Kelvin
Pillar of the Community
United States
1140 Posts
 Posted 06/09/2017  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I remember, I think your Chinese character for KIRIN, 9 spine tail, and rosettes point towards one of the 1898 coins. Of course also the absence of some other devices that are only found on different years.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2895 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2017  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petrus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No doubt about it: it is a Chinese replica. All "rare" and "valuable" coins are forged and can be found very easy.
I have dozens of them....
https://www.thespruce.com/chinese-c...ring-4071202
http://testyourgold.com/why-bullion...-than-coins/
Edited by Petrus
06/12/2017 1:34 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1140 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2017  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm leaning towards genuine unless better pictures or owner replies reveal something else.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
3327 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2017  10:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are many varieties known for this. Kirin cons are known to be severely underweight due to rampant fraud and thus was shunned by the merchants in that era. This also meant that they were much scarcer due to their poor acceptance.

It's hard to say whether it's genuine or fake. Would definitely like another photo of the edge. I understand it's difficult but I suggest sandwiching it between two books and retake the photo with micro zoom. Using the timer function would help as well if you have shaky hands.

This could be easily a few hundred up to a thousand dollar coin if proven to be genuine.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries

My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm Regularly updated at least once a month.
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 10/01/2017  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Albert,

as promised your efforts to identify my Kirin Province coin is reconciled with a result. I have put it to the PMV and it tested about 83% silver. Which is about right for that period. I promised you results and here it is! Again, Thanks for taking the time to evaluate my pics!


Pillar of the Community
United States
1140 Posts
 Posted 10/01/2017  6:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Certainly am very glad you had such a test result. It's hard to judge some of these coins by images. The legit can be so similar to the fakes. I have no doubt an actual fake can look like your coin, but I seriously doubt that it would test as 80% silver.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2895 Posts
 Posted 10/03/2017  05:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petrus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These kind of coins are allways fakes/forgeries.
The replica's are even made in silver.
Specially if the real coin is valuable:
https://www.thespruce.com/chinese-c...ring-4071202
There are several simple methods to check for silver:
magnet test
ping test
ice test
neodymium test
....
Edited by Petrus
10/03/2017 05:05 am
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