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1836 Capped Bust Half -- Cleaned?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
9323 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2018  06:45 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okay guys. TPG companies are a paragon of business integrity and customers who spend millions of dollars a year with them get the exact same grades and breaks as customers who spend $100 in their lifetime. If you want to believe that go ahead and stick your head in the sand. That's your prerogative.

If you stick around and read the PCGS message boards for a decade or so you'll see. Every year examples show up and they are quickly squashed/bammed/deleted. Examples of coins from big dollar submitters grading MS70 and PR70 that are actually 68s abound. Cleaned, damaged problem coins submitted by the big boys grade problem-free while run of the mill collectors get entire orders returned no-grade with better pieces in them. Every day the big submitters get upgrades that others don't get.

Many people have postulated many reasons why this happens. Some nefarious and some reasonable arguments are made. One poster suggested that since very large submissions (100+ coins) are screened by top submitters/numismatists to include 90+ high-grade coins then the 10 dogs mixed in get a different look versus a guy who submits 10 coins with 9 dogs and 1 high-grade coin. This poster at CU Forums was banned immediately.

Other posters had submitted coins multiple times receiving no-grades and spending hundreds of dollars. Finally out of exasperation they add their coins into a submission from a known "big-dog" and they receive righteous grades. Again this poster was immediately banned. More examples occur annually, just watch and read and realize the our current world revolves around money.



ANA #R3154474
Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2018  08:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ah yes the old Internet forum picture grading knowing better than in person professional grading as examples. Sure thing, that's not even remotely close to evidence and your account of what happened on the CU Board isn't exactly what happened. I do read that Board daily and have for quite some time. What happens every day is people complaining they're tight or didn't get the grade they want ect.

The whole 69/70 is irrelevant. That's not grade fixing and everyone has a different standard for what a 70 is. Simply viewing a 70 on a normal computer screen already raises the magnification higher than grading. If grade fixing was in the average joe would never get windfall grades which they do.

The bottom line
Pillar of the Community
United States
1100 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2018  09:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shotgung to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Obtaining hard evidence might be tough. I could see steep price discounts along with quicker turn around time but getting a higher grade (maybe 1-2 grades higher), I don't know. But stranger things have happened. Hell, I just found a double headed 1964 Jefferson nickel, so you never know!
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87505 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2018  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I won't bother to link anything. You can search articles on PCGS message boards (if their search function works).
That is now how it works here. We do not send people to search other message boards. We are here to help, not run snipe hunts.
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9135 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2018  2:44 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Coinhistory,

Do you have the coin in hand yet? This point was already mentioned, and I think it is so very important, but highly understated.


Quote:
It should be noted, though, that pictures often highlight these lines and make them look worse than they do in hand. Be careful, though, because the opposite is also true and some online sellers intentionally manipulate photos to hide such problems.


This is so true. Photos can bring out the absolute worst in a coin, and it can bring out the absolute best in a coin... when you have the coin in hand, please let us know...
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Canada
33 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2018  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinhistory to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No, I have not received the coin yet. Still on its way. I don't like the idea of it being cleaned because some of its history has been erased.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3479 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2018  01:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
No, I have not received the coin yet. Still on its way. I don't like the idea of it being cleaned because some of its history has been erased.



Well at least you got to witness a first class debate. Sorry if it strayed from your original subject but that discussion needed to be had. One of great benefits of CCF is that we are able engage in important dialog that isn't censored by the admins.
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Canada
33 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2018  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinhistory to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I received the coin today. Here are some pictures.

New Member
Canada
33 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2018  9:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinhistory to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

New Member
Canada
33 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2018  9:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinhistory to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Pillar of the Community
United States
3479 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2018  10:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would send it back. That is NOT the look of an original XF-45 coin. You can do much better than that. Again, PCGS has deemed it to be 'market acceptable'. Just because they did doesn't mean you have to. It has the details of an AU coin so they probably docked it a grade or two for the cleaning. Vote with your wallet.
Edited by MikeF
01/13/2018 10:04 pm
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United States
925 Posts
 Posted 01/14/2018  12:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jon Brand to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is it me or is the shape of the nose and bust strange? I see the same issue both in the seller and the ops picture. Slab looks legit but coin looks more then a little weird to me. Maybe I'm just tired and delirious because the more experienced folks here would have noticed in a second and said something.
View Collection: jbknifeandcoin.com
Pillar of the Community
United States
8715 Posts
 Posted 01/14/2018  10:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDollar2017 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is it me or is the shape of the nose and bust strange? I see the same issue both in the seller and the ops picture. Slab looks legit but coin looks more then a little weird to me. Maybe I'm just tired and delirious because the more experienced folks here would have noticed in a second and said something.


I don't see any problems, in the second pic it looks like the light was reflecting off the coin.
Nevertheless, send this coin back immediately. It is definitely NOT original, uncleaned.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1260 Posts
 Posted 01/14/2018  11:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chesterb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep cleaned coin. I'm curious why you bought it coinhistory? Was it at a discounted price or did something else attract you to it?
Pillar of the Community
United States
6365 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2018  1:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Believe whatever you want. The facts are the facts and this has been proven true hundreds of times for decades now.


I have talked with several (honest) dealers about this, and I firmly believe that there is no way that a grader can know who owns what coin. The coins are handed to the graders without any form of identification. Just order numbers to keep the coins together. They can certainly make inferences based on the size of the submission or the coins involved, but there is no way to tell for certain. Keep in mind that I do not like the TPGs, yet I defend them in this case.

The only time I can think of when a specific lot of coins was overgraded across the board was when NGC graded the Stacks' 57th Street hoard. I've found coins in those slabs to be around 10 points high.

I have gotten overly generous grades before, so it is not just a major dealer thing.
Edited by TypeCoin971793
01/23/2018 1:25 pm
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