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1858 Canada 20 Cent - How Good Is This?

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Valued Member
Canada
370 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2020  12:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think that grade was probably assigned some time ago - unless I'm mistaken that's one of the older PCGS holders? I've been told that they've brought their game up a fair bit but still - that is bonkers. I'm not sure about EF-40... the obverse is a little worn on the high points and that the reverse is a weak-ish strike and that certainly takes it down a notch or two. Though the leafs on the reverse are quire nice - They point a little closer to AU maybe? Anyway, I think mint state is well beyond a stretch and the fact that it's got a 66 on the Sheldon scale is too.

Even more crazy is the price that was paid.... I have a gorgeous, originally toned 1858 20 cent. It's graded EF-45 (from ICCS but I'd say they're on the money) and bought it for $350 Canadian.
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United States
51147 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2020  12:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The original coin certainly is an eye-catcher.
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Canada
1593 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2020  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would say its over graded it has very nice fields but shows considerable wear on high points. Or is it a weak strike?
Edited by papeldog
08/14/2020 12:49 pm
Valued Member
Canada
370 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2020  1:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The reverse is certainly a weak strike - you can tell by the word "CENTS" which is often a point of feebleness on this coin. The fields are very nice indeed and I'm pretty sure I can see mint lustre there. I put it in the lower AU range. Maybe 53?
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 Posted 08/14/2020  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tamarin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I love the reverse! The obverse has obvious signs of lustre but the detail is unimpressive. Looks like EF all day long to me, judging by the obverse only.
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Canada
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 Posted 08/14/2020  1:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have no words... would have guessed a 58, maybe a 60
but.....one never knows what others opinions are.
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Canada
370 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2020  1:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can only think that it's something to do with eye appeal, which is clearly quite good. Maybe it's a total knock out in hand?
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United States
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 Posted 08/14/2020  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It must have something going for it. It was graded PCGS MS-66 and sold as part of the Canadiana collection in 2010 for $18,400 US. That collection was pretty much best of the best for Canadian decimal. It was regraded as ICCS MS-67 in 2015, but only sold for $12,925 US.

I do not remember ever seeing this coin in hand, but I am guessing a weak strike on the braid.
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 Posted 08/14/2020  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Check TheDeductible's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add TheDeductible to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We're back to ...

Buy the coin, not the holder!
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United States
978 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2020  2:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed, but when I see a coin graded 66 by PCGS and 67 by ICCS, it gets my attention as probably the real deal. I think in hand this coin probably has booming original luster, which both services value and eye appeal, which PCGS values. In other words, I really doubt the photos do it justice. Given the strike, I would not pay 66 money for this, but can easily see others doing so.
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 Posted 08/14/2020  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numis-Northerner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For once I actually agree with PCGS, I have to say my first thought was MS-66, but guessed PCGS gave it higher. the fields are extremely clean, I don't see any wear, or anything that implies circulation.
Valued Member
Canada
370 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2020  5:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@NumisNortherner - I feel like I'm seeing wear in both the hair at the top of the head, parts of the braid and that little ascending bundle of locks to the left and slightly above the ear. No? The reverse is extremely good - that takes it easily into AU in my books...
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1555 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2020  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What interests me is that it is an early die state with an unusually weak strike. The devices and fields are fantastic. I could see the slight rub on the obverse as coin cabinet rub, rather than from circulation.

I'm curious about the strike on this coin. Does anyone have information on the type of coining press used and the striking pressure for the twenty cent?
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 Posted 08/14/2020  9:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is always possible that I am in error, but I do not really think PCGS took a coin with AU wear (or any noticeable wear) and put it into a 66 holder. Or that the best Canadian collection since Belzberg, which the premier rare coin dealer in Canada helped assemble, made a worn coin part of that collection. Or that somebody bought a worn coin for $18K, cracked it out, and sent it to ICCS where they put it in a 67 holder. Or than somebody else then bought a worn coin for $13K.

Weak strike and pictures taken through a PCGS holder that do not show the luster. If there was a luster break in the effigy the graders would have caught it. All JMO.
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 Posted 08/14/2020  10:58 pm  Show Profile   Check Wade's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
going agree with bosox on this one,

although the coin's photos are unimpressive, you aren't going to fool 2 TPGs and 2 buyers (each spending 5 digits on the coin) without there being "something more to it".

not my cup of tea, but I suspect there is more to this coin that can be derived by said photos


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