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Thinking Of Slabbing? Make Sure You Understand The Facts.or Lose Money

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Pillar of the Community
United States
7112 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2021  11:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

There's actually a separate position for grading modern stuff like ASE and modern proofs than the rest of the grading positions. They're more or less instructed to speed through them due to the volume that is submitted. They do actually go to 3 people, but those people are likely spending a second or two at most on each coin.

I am open to any verification of this information.
On one side I had the word of a former trained grader saying there is no way 3 graders could make the mistakes made, was led to researching the idea of the 20% b/c of it, and concluded the "scooping" idea vs. ...........?


Quote:

Then create one, because there is bias in any system where you try to automate this. What is an AU-53, what's a VF-35? Who decides what the parameters are?

please go back and read two posts ago. This was answered as well as pointing to a former human grading based Ai system already somewhat able to be tested online.
The other type of system based upon percentage of "damage" already existed (also in that post) in 1990 at PCGS and the other companies.
All QC departments in factories making small parts use such a system ... and have been since the 90s b/c they unlike grading companies, other businesses rely upon accuracy for profits. Grading companies do better making profits depending on very limited accountability/verifiable fact and using an "art" to make profits. Accuracy and accountability would bring down profits.


Quote:
The problem with the trust component is security, it'd be very easy to, in theory, flip a 1 to a 0.

Not according to the PCGS promotion of the system back then. They claimed at least a 90% accuracy rate was normal. That's 10 points higher than the best human graders (according to PCGS former president Ron Guth - yet as I mentioned, this 80% is mathematically nonsense...as in not definable).


Quote:
Granted this is from NGC, but PCGS isn't nearly as "transparent" in this regard,

Thank you. the NGC video states and shows three graders. PGS claims it on their web page concerning their guarantee.

What brought me to question this was originally, as mentioned the former grader's opinions and research. Then the posts here which can easily be found, the No FG problem, and other things that kept coming up led me to see the claims by the companies as simply claims by the companies.
All companies make claims - Few, in reality, match up to them.
Example - "project farm" channel on youtube. The guy has posted scientific testing methods on tons of products comparing brand to brand (caution - addicting ). Few do what they say (rarely some DO exceed!)
Company marketing claims need be taken with a grain of salt.


Quote:
Quote:
CCG offers the most competitive compensation in the industry along with career advancement opportunities and a full-time benefits package including health, dental and vision insurance; 401(k) with company match; paid time off benefits and more. Salary commensurate with qualifications, experience and ability.
https://recruitingbypaycor.com/care...rce=&lang=en

I don't understand what this has to do with actual product and professionalism. Its a good rating for what they can give their employees.


Quote:
Show me out of a sample size of a 1000 coins how many are off to a obscene degree. Not talking 1 point, like, a significant amount, like those two you dropped images of.

I sort of already fulfilled this concept with the NO FG Kennedy halves. No...not 1000 examples. But without going back and counting, I do not think saying I referenced (links included) in that essay at least 100 slabs to be able to show percentages of rookie level errors made by PCGS are not negligible (especially when it has cost some people who must have a blind faith in the company thousands of dollars for coins not what the label says). And those rookie level errors DO show that (how to say it?) exalting these companies as THE coin professionals for the hobby is not as valid as some people desire (overall human psychological need for "experts" used as a marketing leverage) want to think it is.

The original post is NOT just about PCGS grading...it is people needing to understand HOW the companies grade (no science like thought) and very real the possibilities of how many people can lose money by thinking they can get rich by sending in their shiny coins to be slabbed and then selling those slabs on eBay.

We see this all the time on this forum and another forum I am on. Every day people think they have some amazing error they will send in and make money on it after its slabbed.

Read it again - The entire concept is that that people mistake graded slabs as being a factually based science. When people learn there is no science, many are very surprised (yes, I have talked with many).

The post was about how even experienced dealers who live, eat, sleep, and drink coins for a living, and have the experience needed (in handling slabs/coins enough to make a good guess at what a grading company will assign as a grade) cannot get rich just finding shiny coins, sending them in, and selling the slabs. Its a gamble even to them b/c grading is not a science.

One other point:
For some reason people who dislike finding these companies faults being exposed seem to overlook my plainly stated position concerning these companies.

Point 6 in the original post encourages people none of what is presented in that post means they need to throw in the towel concerning these companies. I admonish them instead that they need to do some homework to understand the reality of what these companies are so wiser decisions can be made before throwing money at the companies.


The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Edited by Earle42
03/03/2021 12:00 am
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
8518 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2021  12:41 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I am open to any verification of this information.


Not gonna lie, this statement does kinda annoy me. You verify nothing yourself but demand everyone else verify their information, really does kinda press my buttons. You keep saying this could happen or that might happen.


Quote:
Not according to the PCGS promotion of the system back then.


I meant someone hacking their system, not how accurate their AI was.


Quote:
I don't understand what this has to do with actual product and professionalism. Its a good rating for what they can give their employees.


Reread the last sentence.


Quote:
I sort of already fulfilled this concept with the NO FG Kennedy halves.


I don't care about varieties in this case, actual grades. If someone is stupid enough to buy something misattributed then that's on them, if they want a variety they should know what the heck they're looking at.


Quote:
Please cite, other than from the wording of the company itself, how you know so assuredly the company DOES what they state, a minimum of the three graders?


Going back to this, you're the one challenging the statement, why the heck do I have to affirm the position when you're the one challenging it. You prove there isn't 3 or more.


Quote:
I would appreciate someone showing me where I missed this employee being mentioned.


800-447-8848


Quote:
but it was three Kennedy specialist graders who missed this Kennedy half rookie level variety identification?


Modern specialist, not specifically Kennedy specialist, I said this last time as well.


Quote:

Quote:
Human grading is far from perfect, but it's a lot more consistent than you imply.


Again, I need to see data and figures.


You provide the data that it's more inconsistent. Again you're the one challenging so you need to provide the evidence here.


Quote:
an assumed level of professionalism.


These people are likely more educated in authenticating coins than you ever will be, especially the ones who deal with early US. There isn't an assumed level, it is a high level.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
18429 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2021  02:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have absolved myself about having to worry about the facts. Have avoided grading and shipping fees as well.

None of my 2,500 or so coins are slabbed.
When it comes to my own coins, I prefer to grade for myself, especially when buying.
If they are slabbed, I ignore either the slab grade or the slab itself.
Or both.

I am happy to join in the on screen grading exercises, (slabbed or not), and will happily read the opinions of others.
And yes, I sometimes (hopefully rarely), get it wrong.
Edited by sel_69l
03/03/2021 07:26 am
Pillar of the Community
Australia
757 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2021  04:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Sel, your post is confusing, you state that none of your 2500 coins are slabbed, but also state that you ignore the slab grade on coins you are buying. So have you cracked out the coins?
For me my biggest gripe with the TPGs is the dishonest marketing that they do. They make out that their opinions are accurate, professional, carefully scrutinizing each coin etc and able to detect fakes. But their hype doesn't match reality and when so much money is riding on their accurately grading a coin and being consistent then they need to be more open and upfront about their failure rate. Maybe they need to have in big letters on the front of each submission form we get it wrong 20% of the time. That might scare off many customers but it's the honest thing to do.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4397 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2021  11:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm by no means a pro and will never claim to be...just my 2 cents
A smile costs nothing to give or receive....GF
If it's not hockey, it's not a sport
Pillar of the Community
United States
7112 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2021  11:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

CCG offers the most competitive compensation in the industry along with career advancement opportunities and a full-time benefits package including health, dental and vision insurance; 401(k) with company match; paid time off benefits and more. Salary commensurate with qualifications, experience and ability.
https://recruitingbypaycor.com/care...rce=&lang=en

I don't understand what this has to do with actual product and professionalism. Its a good rating for what they can give their employees.

Highlighted what I missed in your post!



Thanks for this reference - much appreciated
The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4115 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2021  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Discussions of grading and grading companies. It is fun to see the discussion. Everyone has a strong opinion.

One thing I would like to see verified is whether indeed 20% of eagles from a monster box are randomly selected for a 70 grade. I have no idea and no opinion.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7112 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2021  1:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hindsight is always best. I now see my title on this thread made it take a turn that was NOT my initial intention.

This was NOT an "attack" on grading companies to cause discussion about grading company merits...although it went that way. And I kept it going by stating facts and asking for data.

As can be clearly seen by not one, but two bold face statements at the end of the initial post, this was not saying grading companies are "evil" (you get the idea). The first statement was not to throw in the towel over these companies, and the second was more or less...none of this matters if you just enjoy collecting slabbed coins - which is a fact!

My actual intentions were twofold:
1. Make a thread to point newbies to before they spend their money to obtain...a slabbed penny where the membership and slabbing fees put a large void in their wallets. I have seen newbs walk away from coins b/c f bad experiences like this. And no, the bad situation is not the company's fault. And that concept aso was mentioned in the original post.

2. My intent was also to inform people unfamiliar with what an actual high grade coin is that just looking good and being shiny is not going to bring them that mucho dinero high graded slab/label they see selling on eBay for the cost of a new Lamborghini (you get the idea).

If you do not known the man in the following video, his name is Daniel Malone. He has a ton of educational videos on his channel including everything you can imagine including how to send in coins for grading.
I made a similar thread post on his forum. I am daily on that forum helping newbies who found a "RARE gem" define what they actually have b/c I knew it would help the load Daniel has.
After Daniel saw my post on this topic, he said he liked it and was going to make a make an educational video on the topic.
21Z56jnRszw


If possible, I need the title of this thread changed, or maybe just can it and make another with my intentions more apparent?

Wording?
Thinking of slabbing? You will lose $$ until you Know the facts...


The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Edited by Earle42
03/03/2021 1:03 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1098 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2021  10:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any idea how people make money selling slabbed coins for say $5? Modern commemoratives come to mind.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7112 Posts
 Posted 03/04/2021  4:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
I am open to any verification of this information.


Not gonna lie, this statement does kinda annoy me. You verify nothing yourself but demand everyone else verify their information, really does kinda press my buttons. You keep saying this could happen or that might happen.

I am very surprised by this statement and would really like to know where this has happened. I have stated when an opinion is being made. And if you have looked in the pdf linked to my signature, you will find everything there (which also is most of what has been said in this thread as well) has verifiable links and references to that material. IN fact, just as a sideline, I have received private messages concerning this paper as to how well it was put together scientifically with information people could look up for themselves.

If you have not taken the time to look at the link, I can see where you might assume I have no verification.

One other thing might be at play here. I cannot scientifically PROVE what the opinion was of the two graders who schooled me and encouraged me to do my own research into the "20% of the top ASE Monster box" idea.
So I will NOT use absolutes such as "proves, is, was, positively," etc. I cannot say PCGS DOES skim 20% off the top of each monster box to slab as MS70, despite the pretty convincing information/data I shared from a former grader to back up the idea." De spite the reliable source of the opinion, I cannot unequivocally PROVE he is right. So I will use terms such as, it "might be," or "it could be."

I undertook a 15 year research in another area which culminated in authoring a 270 page reference manual where being meticulous was paramount. This schooled me well in knowing what is PROOF and what has to be stated a a possibility.

I would appreciate knowing anywhere I made the mistake of now showing where ideas or data come from.

The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Edited by Earle42
03/04/2021 5:13 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
7112 Posts
 Posted 03/04/2021  5:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
I sort of already fulfilled this concept with the NO FG Kennedy halves.


I don't care about varieties in this case, actual grades. if they want a variety they should know what the heck they're looking at.


The context of this entire thread was to warn slabbing-newbies about factual information that they need to understand why grading companies are not a "get rich quick scheme."

As you said:

Quote:
If someone is stupid enough to buy something misattributed then that's on them,

Which is what this thread was started for. Please objectively re-read the original post noting its not telling people to stay away form the "evil slabbing businesses,"

' Note deliberate statements such as

Quote:
And...the "fault" (but not really a "fault" per se) is in the system
"
Emphasis added. Context being the system as a whole - people do not understand its not a get rich quick scheme b/c of the information them presented. There is no "fault."


Quote:
Coin grading companies are simply businesses wanting to make a profit.

Note a distinct reference to them being a businesses with normal business goals.

And the following two points were put last to make sure they were part of what is remembered by someone objectively reading (teaching principle - former teacher - openeing and closing statements are often the things most remembered):


Quote:
6. You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legitimate way without losing money in the process.

And if you just like to collect slabbed coins for what they are, which makes losing/making money from slabs irrelevant, then of course enjoy them!

Emphasis in original statements

I also, posted (look above o this page) that I had poor title wording that likely threw this thread off track.

Just being honest...someone who does not like to see shortcomings of these grading companies posted will take a more defensive position when reading the original thread. However, I want it noted that o the other forum (and there are die hard slab collectors there as well), I actually received private messages congratulating me on helping people who do not understand the actual way to use these companies intelligently.

I hope you watched the video?

The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
786 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2021  02:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numis-Northerner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
. If someone is stupid enough to buy something misattributed then that's on them,


I'm sorry, but this here really bothers and ticks me. Why is it that the major tpgs market themselves as being the security in buying and trading coins sight unseen, yet you completely remove any of their responsibility if they make a mistake? Sounds very shillish too me, which I know you are not.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7112 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2021  1:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Likely b/c the companies found a market by filling the niche we humans seem to have in feeling comfortable b/c someone calling themself an "expert" has put their stamp of approval on something.

It can be seen by how many people post here all the time for information asking how they can send in their (ooh shiny!) coin (with no knowledge of what a high grade coin is) so they can make a mint selling it b/c they saw a shiny one in a slab being sold on eBay for a ton of money.

People just naturally assume b/c there is a company calling themselves professional, and they see tons of their product sellign online, that the companies actualy are THE authorities.

So naturally a lot of collectors who enjoy collecting slabs (nothing wrong with this...hobbies are about fun) have spent a lot of money in their hobby. So when someone questions what some people see as the unquestionable experts, the natural human response is to come to the defense of the company.

Just like none of us care to see something we enjoy or have invested a lot of money in having flaws come to the surface, the human reaction is natural to blame the buyer totally.

I DO agree in personal responisbility. So I can say if I buy something without doing the homework, it IS my fault. However, in this case, I also lay a lot of the fault at the companies who are not producing near what their market seems to ascribe to them. The standards they claim to apply have an awful lot of holes in them. And the more I try to honestly researh, the more problem I have ascribing much more than a business not caring as much about quality control as they should be.

I don't like the situation costs unwitting people thousands of dollars. Not so much for the ones who didn;t take the time to do the homework and wasted their money, but b/c these high dollar sales only serve to up the (presently, IMO - but could be improved if they care to) non-deserved reputation of the companies.
The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Pillar of the Community
United States
1098 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2021  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A better title for such a topic would be: "Thinking Of Cracking Coins out? Make Sure You Understand The Facts.or Lose Money".
Pillar of the Community
United States
7112 Posts
 Posted 03/28/2021  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for this Numis Ed. I wish I would have titled it something like this.

I did post the following above:

Quote:
If possible, I need the title of this thread changed, or maybe just can it and make another with my intentions more apparent?

Wording?
Thinking of slabbing? You will lose $$ until you Know the facts...


The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
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