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Denarius Of Trajan: Real Or Counterfeit:?

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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
19086 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2021  07:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Radial edge cracking is obviously consistent for a genuine denarius.
The character of wear is also consistent for a worn genuine denarius.

A good 'toe in the water' first buy into ancients. Should be a safe buy at the right price. Check comparative coins on VCOINS for comparative prices and condition.
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United States
901 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2021  08:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add travelcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
... endless supply of these over there, always in this quality.
I've always wondered this as well. Always in this condition. Funny thing is that they all look genuine and I could never spot two of the same denarii to prove otherwise.
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United States
6098 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2021  8:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
IIRC, this seller sells like 95% genuine but worn denarii, but I also spotted some questionable coins as well - rulers like Pertinax and Pescennius Niger in similar condition. Never did buy from them so no firsthand experience to weigh in.

FWIW, I bought a job lot of denarii from a reputable auction house (Triskeles) and they were mostly in exactly this condition. I think people in the further provinces just stashed away the "good" denarii when the 50% silver Severan denarii finally arrived.
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Valued Member
United States
212 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2021  8:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add josephrg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since almost all of the coins coming out of this region all seem to have the same wear patterns I would not trust these coins.There are thousands of them on ebay and seems odd they all look alike.
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1029 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2021  2:05 pm  Show Profile   Check louisvillekyshop's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Travelcoin:

So I got this random message I won't respond to from someone with only a few feedback in a country bordering Ukraine on eBay. Started with "Hello Dear" and that said they saw I have denarius and want to offer me lots of denarius "at a good price". Those same quality and they attached pictures. What the heck are these things and how are there countless of them out there (as we always ask.) There photos not mine and I am not replying as I said. Will we ever get to the bottom of this, countless supply for many years, always same quality, not clones of each other in fact no one ever suggest they are all the same.) Bizarre.





Edited by louisvillekyshop
07/07/2021 2:07 pm
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Russian Federation
3588 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2021  5:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now I'm starting to doubt my own Faustina denarius, which I bought in Kaliningrad a few years ago; it's about similarly worn (maybe even more so).

On first principles it makes sense that Roman denarii that made it all the way to Ukraine would mostly be very worn, but the sheer amount still looks suspicious. Maybe someone found a huge hoard (or several) and is trying to disperse it?
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United States
488 Posts
 Posted 07/07/2021  6:22 pm  Show Profile   Check Victor's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Victor to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Millions of Roman coins were struck...many did not survive being melted down etc.; but a lot did...and people keep finding them. There are documented coin hoards with 10's of thousands of coins, so seeing a couple hundred worn denarii is not strange.
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 Posted 07/07/2021  7:20 pm  Show Profile   Check louisvillekyshop's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow a great paper: Third Century Imitations is the conclusion. This is very well done work lots of photos etc. I post the conclusion then the Adobe PDF from Stockholm University's website.

--->"Conclusion: date and originNone of the imitations found on Íland and Gotland has an obverse portrait of an emper-or before Trajan (98-117) or after Commodus (180-192), with the possible exception of no. 26. However, many coins have reverses that undoubtedly imitates reverses of regular coins from the third century, at the latest from the reign of Severus Alexander (222-235). Al-though a production of imitations in the second century cannot be excluded, many coins must belong to the third century (or later?). In my opinion, the Imperial era denarius imitations as a whole are a phenomenon belonging to the third century (or later?) rather than the second, but more research is needed.Almgren and Nerman in 1923, who had al-most no knowledge about denarius imitations outside of Gotland, had two suggestions about their origin: to the north of the Black Sea, i.e., in present-day Ukraine, among the Goths and the Bastarnae, and Gotland itself. Mainly be-cause of the large number of imitations found in Ukraine, and the die-links, a production of imitations on Gotland seems unlikely. The imitations thus point to a connection between Gotland (and Íland?) and peoples living in what is now Ukraine, during the third century (or later?), rather than the second, Here the Goths come to mind, rather than the shadowy Bastarnae. It is not clear, for instance, whether there was a direct connection between Gotland and Ukraine, for example in the form of war-riors from Gotland taking part in the raids of the Goths into the Roman Empire, or whether there was a more indirect one, via Poland. Here too more research is needed."<-----

https://www.archaeology.su.se/polop...ii2018_1.pdf
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 Posted 07/08/2021  09:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add travelcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, very interesting. I do have a few of these in my collection, which I bought from a dealer here in the US. I am assuming they are from the Ukraine as they are selling a few lots at a time. They are never the same and I am leaning towards that hoards are being found and never being made known to the public.
Edited by travelcoin
07/08/2021 11:42 am
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
3588 Posts
 Posted 07/08/2021  12:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
and I am leaning towards that hoards are being found and never being made known to the public.


I hadn't actually looked it up, but I suspect that Ukraine's antiquities laws probably lean towards the confiscatory side, with the corresponding incentive to sell off the finds before government officials come in to take them away.
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 Posted 07/08/2021  4:18 pm  Show Profile   Check louisvillekyshop's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You know to sum it up, if this theory is correct, first they are quite ancient, so that is great and important for history to collect. Second if they are in a lot like the photo I showed I was offered, you'd be able to discern the group like the authors did in the publication, look for patterns. But once they get out into the collectors hands they would have to be accepted forever as coins of the emperor you see as how would you ever trace them back to these lots. Like if one sampled coins from a lot found in Ukraine, you could do elemental analysis of the metals in the silver. And coins from different emperors spaced out over many years you could make the case should not match each other so easily if they did. But as I said looking at a struck ancient silver denarius outside of these lots having been in collectors circulation for a while they just have to be accepted as the correct denarius from a Roman mint. If any of the Stockholm University research is correct of course.
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4434 Posts
 Posted 07/08/2021  4:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

The uniformity of wear is indeed the most confounding aspect to this puzzle. But it seems to me that it'd be a tremendously difficult & maybe not even marginally profitable task to make hundreds or thousands of such seemingly heavily circulated, & thus very modest demand pieces with no two identifiable as being exactly alike. So I'd be inclined towards their being genuine with the possible explanation that they're culls, either from hoards discovered in the region, or possibly having been imported as lots for resale from dealers elsewhere in the world who can't be bothered with retailing such low grade specimens individually.

What I'd really like to see is a significant & random sampling of these subjected to analysis via xray fluorescence (XRF). A determination of the trace metals present (or, more telling, a lack thereof) ought to go a long way in determining whether these are truly of ancient or modern origin.

Colligo ergo sum
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901 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2021  09:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add travelcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
... random sampling of these subjected to analysis via xray fluorescence (XRF). This would definitely add a definitive point to the conversation.
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United States
488 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2021  10:06 am  Show Profile   Check Victor's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Victor to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That paper is talking about 66 imitations out of 8,000 official coins. The unofficial coins look very obviously unofficial, while the large group of denarii posted earlier all look quite official.
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 Posted 07/11/2021  11:47 am  Show Profile   Check louisvillekyshop's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add louisvillekyshop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Victor;

Yes you are correct these have to be official the ones being offered to me randomly. If you look at the Polish find article below of coins that were believed to be from the last stand of the Vandals against a Gothic attack, the photos of the hoard all look like this quite worn the same way. That photo below is from that Polish Museum.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/new...arii-0013499



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