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Need Help With 1890 CC

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 Posted 07/31/2021  12:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The more I'm looking at this, the more I am thinking fake.

EDIT: I'm thinking genuine 1890, with an added mm. Look at the area surrounding the mm. The circular area looks recessed, with the mm set in a well. The shape of the mm looks wrong, especially the second "C" in the mm. The deep indentations on the reverse may suggest a clamping device to hold the coin. Several genuine 1890 dollars have stray denticle impressions in different places on the reverse. There are spots on this coin that could be those impressions. (Just above the olive branch is one such area.) Too many concerns here.
Edited by fortcollins
07/31/2021 1:06 pm
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 Posted 07/31/2021  1:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carlp007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure I should put this in but the coin is being offered by Larry Shapiro Rare Coins. Is anyone familiar with him or purchase from him?
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 Posted 07/31/2021  1:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldfordman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm thinking genuine 1890, with an added mm. Look at the area surrounding the mm. The circular area looks recessed, with the mm set in a well. The shape of the mm looks wrong, especially the second "C" in the mm.

Thats my guess and reasoning too.
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 Posted 07/31/2021  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@carl, if you use the CCF search box with LARRY SHAPIRO as keywords, you will find multiple threads that mention this seller. Here is a link to one of them (under the heading "reputable online dealers"):

http://goccf.com/t/198589

"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
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"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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 Posted 07/31/2021  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carlp007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Spence I will take a look.
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 Posted 07/31/2021  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not convinced that it's counterfeit or an added MM. Here are some comparisons of the date and CC to a genuine 1890-CC VAM-5. The date appears to be an exact match, and the MM is pretty close with these out of focus pics. The position is correct, but the second C may have taken a hit causing it to lose its shape slightly. Obviously, it would be easier to tell if there is an added MM in hand or with sharper pics.


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 Posted 07/31/2021  2:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carlp007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Zurie with the nice example. They do look close. Hope fully with the better picture and weight on Monday it will reveal more.
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 Posted 07/31/2021  5:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Oldfordman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The style of the second c in cc looks completely different to me.
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 Posted 07/31/2021  6:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Personally I think it's distortion from a hit. But you might be right--I wouldn't bet anything based on the fuzzy photo.
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 Posted 08/02/2021  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Check jacrispies's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Color looks correct, luster looks natural, devices seem normal. I think it is a genuine coin with a contact mark right in the middle of the second C. I see a lot of other marks and damage on this coin, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is just a coincidental hit.
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 Posted 08/03/2021  12:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carlp007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a close up of the CC. I also have a new picture of the obverse if needed.




Edited by carlp007
08/03/2021 12:06 am
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 Posted 08/03/2021  02:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for posting the sharper photos. I did an overlay of the coin with a known 1890-CC VAM-5, and the mintmark position is exactly correct. Some of what you see is doubling on the top of the second C. I think it's highly unlikely that a counterfeiter would be savvy enough to add a CC mintmark to an 1890-P to exactly match the obverse and reverse of a known VAM. Of course, it's still a details coin from the gouges on the right side wing and across the lower wreath, but I think it's likely to be genuine.
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 Posted 08/03/2021  10:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carlp007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your help Zurie.

Does a VAM coin reduce the coin's value?
Edited by carlp007
08/03/2021 10:13 am
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 Posted 08/03/2021  12:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After seeing the new pic of the reverse, my concerns are resolved. I withdraw my belief that it is an altered 1890. This appears to be a genuine 1890-CC VAM-5.

@Zurie, Great detective work! You were spot on!

The obverse hit on the forehead, and the reverse hits to the mm, the eagle's left wing (our visual right), and the eagle's left talon to the second "L" of DOLLAR clearly would detail this coin. IMHO it would grade VF Details.
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 Posted 08/03/2021  2:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@fc, thanks!

@carlp007, technically, all Morgans are VAMs, so it wouldn't reduce the value. VAMs are just a way to identify die varieties and to determine which specific dies were used to mint the coin.
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