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2021 Type 2 Missing Reed Edge

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104611 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2021  4:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It makes it far easier to tell which end is down (when looking at the Obverse) (up for reverse)
A feature, not a bug.
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 Posted 08/02/2021  7:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If the mint disclosed all of its security features, it wouldn't be much of a security feature, right?

I suppose but shouldn't WE, the buyers/sellers also be able to determine easily what's genuine and what's not?
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191 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2021  11:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another, this one from LCS. The missing reed is under the 0. Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't this be easy to fake with a moved missing reed? Counterfeiters won't need to be very precise in its location. It would be interesting to know if the Mint is keeping track of how often they move the missing reed area, how many struck. I hope this turns out to be a helpfull security feature rather than ineffective.



Edited by livingwater
08/04/2021 12:03 am
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United States
3289 Posts
 Posted 08/04/2021  08:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe that missing reed is in alignment with something else on the coin, either obverse or reverse that we don't know about that can be measured very accurately to ensure that the coin is real and not a counterfeit.

Say by using a straight edge, you align the missing reed (either side of it or centered on it?) with the 'E' in Liberty at the top and the imaginary line between the 2 points MUST correlate to or pass through a spot on the coin.
Well that is how I would do it instead of moving it around a tiny bit as shown by the images up above...
Edited by Dearborn
08/04/2021 09:09 am
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United States
191 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2021  07:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You might have an answer there, with that straight line. But it's still a weak security feature IMO.
Edited by livingwater
08/05/2021 07:35 am
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 Posted 08/05/2021  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bzookaj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But it's still a weak security feature IMO.

It's a good thing they inserted those RFID chips as a backup.
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 Posted 08/05/2021  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My thought is it's more like a key of a sort, and if it don't fit for the year, then it's likely a fake and they will change the position of it from year to year so the counterfeiters will at least have to wait for it's release to learn the position, and then start a new fake off.

the reverse is also much stronger than the obverse. I'd think that has to be a security feature in itself and a pain to reproduce accurately unless you intended for that in the die designs. I think the notch is just there to slow them down, so they have to wait to find out where it will be placed, before they could move on to making fakes and trying to get the obverse and reverse right.

The AW initials would be hard to reproduce accurately, from what I can tell those on all coins are pretty darn exact they don't blob together on any I've seen.

Also I know the 500 Yen coin has a microprinted N in one of the 0's of the 500 on it, very tiny. there could be something like that on this coin somewhere in the design, in the eagle would be a nice place to hide it.

realistically though the fakes don't have to be good, they are still going to be made and someone somewhere is going to buy them.
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 Posted 08/05/2021  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Corbe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My thought is it's more like a key, and if it don't fit for the year, then it's likely a fake and they will change the position of it from year to year so the counterfeiters will at least have to wait for it's release to learn the position, and then start a new fake off (...) I think the notch is just there to slow them down, so they have to wait to find out where it will be placed, before they could move on to making fakes

I like this line of thought. Obviously we will find out in due time about that idea!
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 Posted 08/05/2021  4:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So far in its early release there are already five different positions under 2021 as per pics. Maybe they will just keep rotating it all around the coin in coming years, who knows.
Edited by livingwater
08/05/2021 4:17 pm
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United States
189 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2021  4:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Corbe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I recall correctly, the edge reeds are a separate step, so possibly there is some tolerance allowed ... or just secret sauce ... or we are making things up ... did you notice that the Type 2 coins hum a little if you put them next to a person that's had the covid vaccine? =P
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 Posted 08/12/2021  10:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add msl2196 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just a few ideas in case anyone from the Mint is reading...

If they wanted to, the Mint could essentially serialize these by removing four reeds from the edge:

One in a predefined location on the coin as the reference point (i.e. index 0, or start counting from here).
One with the entire reed missing as the first two digits (i.e. 36 away from the reference point >> first two digits are 36).
One with the top (obverse) half of the reed missing as the middle two digits.
One with the bottom (reverse) half of the reed missing as the final two digits.

If there are at least 101 reeds (I've never counted, but that seems to be a reasonable guess), you could make almost a million combinations this way (with the exception that you can't use any numbers that would require missing reeds in the same place, such as 362536).


They could also delete a reference reed in a standard location--and then remove 10 or so other reeds in other locations and multiply them to get a serial number. This should give enough numbers to be able to use something analogous to a check digit (or some other similar validation tool).
Edited by msl2196
08/12/2021 10:16 am
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United States
189 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2021  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Corbe to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Aren't the reeds used by vending machines? If so, then you don't want to go removing too many. And, you can't remove a variable number of reeds as it will affect the weight.
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 Posted 08/12/2021  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Call me stupid... But I think the mint could not care less about where the missing reed is and this "security" feature.

After all the mint is not storing these to back our dollar.

edited: Nor do I think they are checking eBay and other sites for counterfeit coins. It's up to us, the buyer to know what's real when getting these coins on the secondary market.
I'm by no means a pro and will never claim to be...just my 2 cents
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Edited by Greasy Fingers
08/12/2021 4:56 pm
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United States
119 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2021  11:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add msl2196 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Call me stupid... But I think the mint could not care less about where the missing reed is and this "security" feature.

After all the mint is not storing these to back our dollar.


Hmm. Interesting point. When you think about it, it does kind of look like currency debasement--in the same way that the Romans used to clip coins. If my ASE has one less reed your ASE has one less reed, and everyone else's has one less reed, that's a couple million reeds that the mint didn't have to include in the coins--and can keep as profit...
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United States
191 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2021  08:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The USA has gone down the road of the Romans, debasing coins, etc. But ASE are by law 1 oz. silver even with missing reed(s), as they should be with high enough prices to cover costs and likely more. I wonder if the Mint is the only government department to make a profit or are they supposed to break even? I don't know. Maybe it varies from year to year.

I have Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Nero and other good silver denarii before debasement.
Edited by livingwater
08/13/2021 10:04 am
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