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1859 Brass Cent Vs 1859 9/6

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Pillar of the Community

Canada
1433 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2012  3:50 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I was wondering if someone could explain this one to me.

There's maybe 15-20 1859 brass cents known, most in poor quality. Some have referred to this coin as simply an "error coin" caused by one bad batch of planchets. There may still be dozens out there, waiting to be discovered.

The 1859 9/6 is the rarest of the 1859 overdates, with perhaps a dozen known / attributed. I've seen about 1 in 500 to 1000. I bought it. One of the authors of the 2011 Charlton large cent variety section, goes through thousands of 1859 cents at coin shows, auctions, ebay, etc. I believe he has acquired 2. Zonad traded a 1858/1558 dime in VF for a 1859 9/6 in MS. One sold on Heritage Auctions a few years back, and someone found a damaged VG example and posted it online. That's about 6 that I know of.

The 1859 brass cent will sell in G-VG for $10,000+, yet the 1859 9/6 goes for 1/20th that price, yet of equal rarity.

Is it because the 1859 brass has been known for a very long time and has been hoarded by famous collectors and thus the price has been "fixed" at $10,000+ ? And the 1859 9/6 is a recent discovery?

If the 1859 brass is an error coin on a defective planchet, why not sell at $200-$300 like all the other modern off-metal planchet errors?

My theory is that it all comes down to advertisement from "big name" collectors. If Pitmann didn't care about the 1936 dot, you could probably buy it for $1000 today, instead of $400,000. Perhaps the same is true of the 1859 brass cent.

Which makes me wonder if anyone will ever step up to the plate and make famous the very rare overdates such as the 1859 9/6, 1859 DP9-#5 and the 1859 TP9.

Edited by canadian-varieties
01/10/2012 3:54 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
912 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2012  4:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The three 1859 varieties you mention each are the result of a re-punched reverse die. The question to be answered is "how long did each die stay in service" before they broke. I suspect, but have no proof, that these dies lasted for at least a few hundred, or few thousand, coins. Since the identification and wholesale search for these varieties is relatively new, time will tell.

Of course the same could be true for brass cents. I tend to doubt it though. Brass cents have been known for a long time, but few discovered.
Edited by bosox
01/10/2012 4:43 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1331 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2012  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zonad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So? Do you have one coming? I was so tempted to buy the ef on eBay but the kids want to eat.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2012  4:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Kids and their meals, so inconvenient. Let them eat bronze!
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Canada
9144 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2012  6:58 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's about 6 that I know of.


You have been chasing Canadian varieties for... what, 8-10 months? So because you don't know populations that actually exist, and (from previous posts on this forum with other varieties) you do not accept evidence contrary to population reports that are erroneous in the first place (see the old 1954 NSF thread), even from collectors well established and published in this hobby, so therefore it must be rare? Trust me, more than 5 people have the 1859/6 squirreled away, it is a repunched die variety, and those people would look at you like you were crazy, should you suggest to them to send it to a TPG. Why would they do that? The variety folks want the coin raw, they want to study the die cracks, check the broken leaf and vine stems, compare their observations with others, etc... it is a niche that will never see the demand of mainstream Canadian collections. More importantly, that is the pleasure they get out of this hobby. They will never sell those coins for a fortune, they are more likely to trade it for another variety, or sell it deeply discounted, so that a variety peer can reap the same pleasure. Why do you think Mr. Turner published his books? To hoard and make money from 1858 scarce die pairings? Because he wanted his friends to make money? Heck no, it is because of the passion for a series of coins, the desire to research and learn, and to share the results of a labour of love. The trade you speak of with the mint state 1859/6 was between two friends, who wanted to make each other happy with things they truly love and collect - not because they wanted to make money. The 1858 10c was the icing on the cake - you will probably never know the other coin that sealed the trade. I know this, I was at the same table during the trade, not that you will believe anything I state (why start now, it is merely heresay)...

How many "very rare" 1859 DP#5 do you want to buy - I'll trade you 5 for any Victorian 50c in mint state grade. You can pick the year.

Seriously, if it was that rare and valuable, do you not think it would take you longer than one RCNA auction to acquire one? There are at least 35-50 of them in the hands of the large cent gang (you already know a few of them from the CCC Site), one collector has 8 or 9 of them. Another collector has been finding all kinds of varieties in New England coin shops (nobody bothered to look before). That, is not rare.

Didn't we already have this discussion of what 'rare' means? http://goccf.com/t/100054&whichpage=4

Now, you are putting the 'very' adjective in front of 'rare' to describe these coins? And you want these repunched dies to become famous? What for? Do you actually think ANY of the mainstream large cent variety crowd, some of whom have been around for more than a decade, will actually want to buy one? Heck no, they are a patient bunch, and they would rather hunt one out of a junk bin, or make trades with friends.

The Canadian coin market is most definitely not the same as the US coin market. Die varieties will never enjoy the same price elevations as they do in the US market. For one, the demand is not like there with a huge collector base. Demand drives everything... look at the 2006P non-magnetic cent. Hard to find, but not rare - yet, everyone wants one, so the price is set by the demand. Even better, compare the population of the 1859 brass cent with the NFLD 1873 5c Obv #1... but you can buy one in VG for about $2K (I could have bought 3 in the past year alone), but an ugly corroded 1859 brass is at least 5 times as much at the last Torex, with a higher population. Why... simply demand. The demand is so very low for NFLD coins, it is ridiculous how cheap you can buy really, really low mintage coins. (Dealers actually hate NFLD coins in their inventory, they commonly say that the only thing scarcer than some NFLD coins, is finding a NFLD collector).

You can try all you want to boost the profile of Canadian die varieties for whatever rea$ons you want, but you are already preaching to the converted, to a congregation of less than 40 who will never, ever, pay the prices that you envision.

/end rant...
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Edited by SPP-Ottawa
01/10/2012 7:15 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
902 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2012  10:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add littlemoney to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow
Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2012  12:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Pillar of the Community
Canada
1433 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2012  12:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Zonad, the ICCS EF 1859 9/6 is on its way to me now.

SPP..that's exactly the kind of rant I wanted to evoke...so thanks ...your many assumptions and contradictions...are absolutely fascinating...

Mr.Turner...I would like to ask, since there is no good way to differentiate a brass 1859 from a regular 1859...there is no way to know just how many are out there?

short of SPP zapping a random sample of 100,000 1859s and see how many brass 1859s turn up......that would be fantastic...I think you need a sample that large since only 20 are "known"...

SPP...the "there is demand, so its expensive" is a circular argument that doesn't really address the issue. What CAUSED the demand for the 1859 brass to be high?

That's the REAL question ...that I'd love to see some potential answers to...

Edited by canadian-varieties
01/11/2012 01:16 am
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2012  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The demand in brass cents was caused because people find gross errors to be attractive from a collectable standpoint. Minor errors are attractive to a much narrower audience. This is marketing fact, this is human nature. The greater the perceived shift from a normal product the more likely it is to be highly thought of.

Hyundai or Lamborghini ?
McChoknPuke or Ruth's Chris ?
Third Class or Deck Cabin ?
New Zealand Mule or twonie Hiker die chip error?
Minor re punch or brass planchet?

Rarity doesn't matter. If there is only one restaurant in Winnipeg with a health notice on the door, then that makes it a rare event. Very few seek to eat there however. A repunch isn't quit the vomitorium of numismatics, but neither is it a widely celebrated event. It's celebrated among a few who are interested, just like a health notice is likely only celebrated among those interested.

You post a fair bit about the perceived lack of value in varieties thus I must ask - What is it you want from varieties? A broader market to sell to? To become a highly famed author? To make money from this? I ask because I don't know what your goals are here. When I post with a rant, there's no question of the outcome I desire, throw us a bone and do the same please.
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9144 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2012  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
SPP...the "there is demand, so its expensive" is a circular argument that doesn't really address the issue.


Quite the contrary. Demand also explains why a tiny, mysterious little die chip or hand punch on the 1947 5c and 25c coins is so highly prized. There is no other logical explanation. Perhaps I should just defer to yet another quote, this one more contemporary:


Quote:
Luke: I can't believe it. Yoda: That is why you fail.
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
Edited by SPP-Ottawa
01/11/2012 4:13 pm
Valued Member
141 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2012  5:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coiladdict to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Coin collecting is fun....isn't it?
Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2012  9:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Minor errors are attractive to a much narrower audience. This is marketing fact, this is human nature.

I'd call it coin and stamp collector nature. Can you imagine these promos?:

"Be the first on the block to have a three-legged chair! These resulted when the guy putting on the fourth leg fell asleep on the job."

"We have a limited selection of new cars with rust bubbling through the paint and a few with color stripes where the paint wasn't mixed properly."

"We just got a shipment of tables with one short leg. Excellent accent pieces to the three-legged chairs."
Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2012  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Coin collecting is fun....isn't it?


More fun than collecting coils, I would guess.
Valued Member
141 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2012  11:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coiladdict to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"More fun than collecting coils, I would guess"

All depends...coils (metal detectors) helped me find an intrest in collecting coins...I'm fairly new to both. Rather be out "swinging coil"...(metal detecting)...hence the name "coiladdict".

Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2012  11:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
He was clowning with you Coiladdict literally, look at Fred's signature line and his ecrater metal detector store.

:D
Valued Member
141 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2012  12:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coiladdict to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Oh...no Ugly.. I didn't take offence...just explaining my name...the name "coiladdict" is kind of strange.

I was reading the posts here and some people take this coin collecting very seriously...I respect this but at the same time just trying to bring to light the fact of having fun with the hobby...I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Take care for now
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