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AU55 Sheldon

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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1295 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2012  6:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add markn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And here is what many of the "anti-Sheldon camp" object to. How are those new to the hobby supposed to get their heads around this? Learning to grade coins is hard enough without learning two different systems that use the same words to mean different things.

A country that forced all new arrivals to learn two different and contradictory languages would probably not have many willing immigrants or tourists.


SAP you described the migration of Australian adjectival grading away from the British standard to what we have today. While I am not old enough to know first hand I am sure that at some times both systems were being used by different dealers and collectors had to cope with the change. In fact I am certain this is the case because I still come across people today who are throwbacks to the 60's who insist that bronze coins must be full red to be "uncirculated". I don't see what is going on with the current Australian grading "standard" (whatever that is) and the Sheldon system being used by some dealers as any different to what has gone on before. Collectors coped with change before, they'll cope again. Personally I don't find one system to be superior to the other, they are just different.


Quote:
Unfortunately, you can't ignore them. If you ask any of the graders of Slabland to please omit the alphabetic designation and just put the Sheldon number on the slab, will they do it? No, they won't. And the simple fact is that the "EF" in "EF-40" is indeed short for Extremely Fine. Saying that "EF-40" really means "Very Fine" will just confuse everybody, especially the people who are just starting to learn to grade.


Of course you can. Get educated, understand that the numbers are what matters and ignore the verbiage.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2012  6:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add enworb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hard to argue with the wealth of information that is sap.
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Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2012  6:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why is it that the Sheldon system is referred to as the NEW way of grading
It's been around for about 70 years, If it is that good and superior to any other system it would have been adopted by now worldwide.
It obviously hasn't.
If an idea has been around for that long and still not too many takers, it can't be that good an idea.
Henry Ford came up with an idea and was copied world wide very fast.
So my assumption is that Sheldon is not in the same league as Henry Ford
Pillar of the Community
United States
1048 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2012  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kookoox10 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, the Sheldon scale is a process that's starting to spread outside of North America. And we can thank the TPG's for it. In fact, a company like PCGS is expanding their operations to countries like China. With the consistent counterfeiting going on there, PCGS is more or less fulfilling the "is it genuine" tag along with Sheldon grading their coins.

And just a general observation, there seems to be quite a healthy group of Aussie collectors on this forum. Is the grading standard more strict for your country's collectors than others?
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Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2012  7:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And just a general observation, there seems to be quite a healthy group of Aussie collectors on this forum. Is the grading standard more strict for your country's collectors than others?


I think we are harder on our grading of the coins in our own collections.
Ebay will always be the same BS Grades.
I have heard mentioned on a few occasions that "I might get it slabbed again " in the hope of a better grade.
What is that about if a coin is a certain grade it will never get better.
Personally I am very hard on grading my own coins.
With the Aussie pre decimals being of such low mintages and their age it is quite hard to get a high grade coin.
I haven't seen a ms70/gem UNC yet.
They are out there but way out of my league in terms of $$$.
I always use a Lupe and now a usb gizmo to scan for defects.
Some of our older coins are known to have weak strikes and some are known to be great strikes, That is taken into account when grading as well.

The short answer is YES
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Australia
13346 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2012  8:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
SAP you described the migration of Australian adjectival grading away from the British standard to what we have today. While I am not old enough to know first hand I am sure that at some times both systems were being used by different dealers and collectors had to cope with the change. In fact I am certain this is the case because I still come across people today who are throwbacks to the 60's who insist that bronze coins must be full red to be "uncirculated". I don't see what is going on with the current Australian grading "standard" (whatever that is) and the Sheldon system being used by some dealers as any different to what has gone on before. Collectors coped with change before, they'll cope again.

The difference is the speed of change. Gradeflation happened gradually, almost imperceptibly. It's kind of like a long gentle slope most of us have been rolling down, hardly noticing the slope is there. You have to pick up a 50 year old book to see how far we have fallen. Your "throwbacks" are simply people who refused to allow themselves to roll down that hill.

Advocates of the immediate adoption of the Sheldon-scale-graded American TPG grading standard are asking people to jump off a cliff. You can't blame people, even those who have been merrily rolling downhill, for objecting to such sudden, sharp change.

Quote:
Personally I don't find one system to be superior to the other, they are just different.

I agree. As I said in the other thread, personally I use the Sheldon scale in my collection database, and have done so for decades. It wasn't until I joined American coin forums like this one that I realised gradeflation had hit pretty hard in North America and taken the definitions I'd learned and diluted them.

In hindsight, it would have been better to have done what Canada did, and adopt the Sheldon scale early. The cliff wasn't as sharp back in 1983; as I understand it, the main resistance in Canada was the usual cultural one, "Why should we just copy what the Americans do?". There wasn't a radical dilution of the grading standard. But it's too late for a smooth transition here now.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Australia
13346 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2012  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have heard mentioned on a few occasions that "I might get it slabbed again " in the hope of a better grade.
What is that about if a coin is a certain grade it will never get better.

That's known as the "crackout game" - resubmitting coins to a TPG again and again until the desired grade is attained. Think of it as "gradeflation in action". It's a game only worth playing in America, where there are gigantromorphic price increases for a single point increase in grade; once it's eventually bumped up a grade, the higher price the coin can now realise will more than cover the multiple resubmission fees.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2012  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
That's known as the "crackout game" - resubmitting coins to a TPG again and again until the desired grade is attained. Think of it as "gradeflation in action". It's a game only worth playing in America, where there are gigantromorphic price increases for a single point increase in grade; once it's eventually bumped up a grade, the higher price the coin can now realise will more than cover the multiple resubmission fees.

So from what I can surmise is it is more about the money than it is about the coin.
If the coin finally finds a lax grader it suddenly becomes super valuable Just because it is in a slab with a fictitious grade on it , regardless of the coins actual grade.
When I buy a coin I ignore the grade on the 2x2 or slab and grade it for what it is, Then add it to my collection
I spend a fair chunk of change every year on coins for my own pleasure, Not as an investment That's what shares and my super is for
Valued Member
Australia
163 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2012  02:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rbarat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Regardless of the grading system used, I think as a collector I'm looking for consistency more than anything.

If a slabbed coin is cracked out and resubmitted, receiving a better or worse grade than originally assigned, how can you be happy or unhappy with the fact you have received a different result ?
You may be happy because your coin has magically become more valuable (or unhappy because it is less valuable), but wouldn't the first thought in your mind be "why wasn't the coin given that grade on the first submission" ?
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Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2012  02:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If a slabbed coin is cracked out and resubmitted, receiving a better or worse grade than originally assigned, how can you be happy or unhappy with the fact you have received a different result ?
You may be happy because your coin has magically become more valuable (or unhappy because it is less valuable), but wouldn't the first thought in your mind be "why wasn't the coin given that grade on the first submission" ?



My prefered option is to break open the slab and grade it myself
Pillar of the Community
Australia
760 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2012  06:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MobOfRoos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is an example of what I think bugs serious coin collectors so much about slabbed coins. It is by no means an isolated case.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUSTRALIA-1...em2a117877da

The book value for an aUnc 1936 Florin is $240.

So not only does this seller have the arrogance to think that a slabbed coin demands the full CV price. But it is the CV price of a aUnc when the coin is in fact no more than EF by Australian standards.
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7096 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2012  06:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Here is an example of what I think bugs serious coin collectors so much about slabbed coins. It is by no means an isolated case.


I had better get this (EF) coin slabbed ay.
Might even get ms on this one




Pillar of the Community
Australia
869 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2012  7:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add goatieman23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all, just hoping to add my two-bob (two shillings), I always refered to the following two links because of the depth of information, but SAP has a far more honest & open opinion not having a retail business or the surname; Eigner. The main reason I referred to the Drake Sterling was because of the picture which I printed & stuck in the front of my price guides. I found it a useful tool for comparison/s. The major issue is that the owners of both sites share the Eigner surname...coincidence? Maybe they're just trying to see the rise of PCGS in Australia.

http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-...what-is-PCGS
http://www.numismatics.com.au/Blog/...rading_Guide
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1295 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2012  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add markn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Here is an example of what I think bugs serious coin collectors so much about slabbed coins. It is by no means an isolated case.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AUSTRALIA-1...em2a117877da

The book value for an aUnc 1936 Florin is $240.

So not only does this seller have the arrogance to think that a slabbed coin demands the full CV price. But it is the CV price of a aUnc when the coin is in fact no more than EF by Australian standards.


Well done on being educated enough to know that an AU55 is EF and that the seller is over-grading it. The PCGS grade TELLS you that it's probably not an Aussie AU. What if the coin was raw and the seller was calling it AU? What information do you have to go on then? Just a picture and a money hungry sellers assurance.

I see this as an advantage of PCGS graded coins rather than a fault. By the way 1936 florins are another coin whose CV has been shown to be wrong by PCGS graded coins. Lovely slabbed MS64 coins of this year can easily be had for $500 or so. A good $350 under the imaginary number in Macca's.

Pillar of the Community
Australia
1295 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2012  7:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add markn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In hindsight, it would have been better to have done what Canada did, and adopt the Sheldon scale early. The cliff wasn't as sharp back in 1983; as I understand it, the main resistance in Canada was the usual cultural one, "Why should we just copy what the Americans do?". There wasn't a radical dilution of the grading standard. But it's too late for a smooth transition here now.


I am no particular advocate for one system over the other but Sheldon grading has been in use here in Australia for nearly 10 years now by Chris Buesnell through ACGS and the last 5 years via TPG graded coins. It's probably here to stay and collectors need to understand how to relate the two systems. I don't think it will ever be adopted as "the" standard by ANDA.
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