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PCGS Has Damaged My Coin

 
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  02:38 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add serial to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
So sent a coin to PCGS via a coin dealer to be graded. The coin to be graded was a Tranvancore 1/2 Rupee and I expected PCGS to give it a high Grade. After paying for regular service level I waited and waited and then finally got the PCGS grades emailed through. I was very excited I had several coins grade in mint state and I have a couple of number 1 coins on the PCGS grading list.

Then the coins arrived and I eagerly inspected them in there new plastic PCGS tombs only to stop at my ME1118 India , Travancore 1/2 Rupee. It didn't look right, it was damaged! I couldn't believe my eyes, the coin had a big rim strike and looked bad compared to how I sent it and how it looks on PCGS website. I was shocked and immediately showed my wife. she got mad and said I had to do something about it. So I did my research on the PCGS website and started to discuss the issue with them via email. I will attach conversation on next post. In the endi had to get up early and ring PCGS to discuss the issue.
So long story short the most PCGS will pay me for the coin they damaged is $15 and that is only IF they find they damaged it. I am not happy and will not return the coin to them only to be given $15.
what I have learnt from this is
*overstate the value of the coin you are getting graded on the PCGS grading form as they will only pay this amount or less if they damage the coin.
*PCGS can and does damage coins in their care
*PCGS website states that it checks the coins at several points to ensure that the coin has been correctly graded including just before they send the coin. I do not believe this to be true as PCGS should have picked this up before the coin left.

anyway here are pics of the coin in the PCGS slab






pics of coin as taken by PCGS before damage


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United States
23520 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  03:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Holy cow, they killed it. And provided the photographic proof that they did it. What is this coin's retail value?
Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  03:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add serial to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
not $15 which they offered me!
I actually suggested as a solution that they find , buy and give me the other PCGS MS 64 as a replacement
I was told that it would be impossible to do
for $15 I would rather that people learn that PCGS damages coins in its possession so people are pre warned
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United States
9213 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  03:52 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You need to move this up PCGS' food chain. If it's a $150 coin then you get $150. A customer service reps $15 offer is silly to even consider unless it's a $15 coin.
ANA #R3154474
Pillar of the Community
United States
4696 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  03:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just curious......How much money would the coin be worth undamaged?

If you (or the person/company sending in the coin) stated the value was 15$ when in fact it was worth much more than that then ya'll made a huge mistake. Understating values to save on insurance fees invites trouble such as this. I believe PCGS's agreement with the submitter goes into this.

Yeah, you can be mad at PCGS but they are just doing what the submission agreement requires.

I believe your complaint should be with WHO decided to value it at only 15$ on the submission form.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  04:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add serial to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
no my issue is with the people who damaged my coin
the amount they offered is just symbolic of the lack of remorse they have.
also they tried to get me to send the coin to them without any agreement on value or that the coin will be returned if we could not form a settlement agreement.
I believe had I sent it then it never would have been returned in the slab if at all, remember possession is 9/10 the law
now they have a clearly not ms64 coin floating around in a PCGS slab graded as ms 64.
makes you wonder how many other coins are not correctly graded in their slabs doesn't it?
Pillar of the Community
United States
4696 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  04:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On the back of the submission form in section 4 of the terms and conditions (yes, the fine print!) it states in big letters that in any event their liability shall not exceed the customer's declared value.

Sounds to me like they offered 15$ cause that was what recorded on the submission form as the stated value. If so, your complaint should be with the submitter.
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Australia
13177 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  04:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Several people have asked what the coin might be worth undamaged in this grade.

The only price guide available is the NGC guide, here. The prices there are for raw coins, taken from the Krause catalogues, and only go up to EF grade. I would assume from that observation that these coins are pretty much impossible to obtain in Unc, hence PCGS' reluctance to go down the path of obtaining a replacement coin. The proof coin of this date catalogues at $500; a slabbed MS-64 example could easily match this. Assuming, of course, that PCGS correctly identified this as a circulation strike and not a proof, but in this case I don't think it matters much, as far as value is concerned.

It should perhaps be clarified: did the form the dealer submitted for you only state a value of $15 for this coin? If so, then your coin was seriously undervalued and yes, you (and your dealer) will pretty much have to chalk it up as a lesson learned not to undervalue your coins in an attempt to minimize TPG fees.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  06:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add serial to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yes the PCGS authorised dealer did submit it with a $15 value
however lets not lose sight of the fact that PCGS are the ones who damaged the coin.
and I paid for the coin to be valued in the $300-$3000 range of service with PCGS
I was not trying to avoid any fees and I paid the higher amount because I knew it would grade well
also PCGS could make a fair offer outside of the terms and conditions to settle this without bad publicity.
they chose not to. now I can legitimately sell the coin as a PCGS graded MS 64 and the Third party could claim the difference of PCGS which I cant
in a new act of ry they have now cancelled the certificate
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2031 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  06:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add arianzo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I consider that if I send a coin to be graded it's because I don't know its grade and consequently don't know his market value.

So, if the coin get damaged before PCGS received it(let's say on the way), I agree about the $15 declared BUT once the coin is already graded, the coin automatically should upgrade its value according to the market value so in the "trip to home" until the customer receives the coin, we should consider that the coin has a new value (price). Only if the customer would have asked clearly to PCGS to declare a $15 to pay less insurance in the shipment that brings the coin back, I could agree with PCGS. If not, I think PCGS should be responsible.
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United States
3317 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  10:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are entitled to your opinion, the FACT is that the submission valued the coin at $15 and that's what they offered.

So, either you signed the form and your recourse is with yourself for not doing minimal research before submission.
OR, the authorized dealer signed the form and your recourse is with him/her.

(adding #4):
-----Burton
45 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC
Owned by four cats and a wife of 35 years (joined 1983)
Edited by BStrauss3
11/07/2013 11:37 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
4696 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  12:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I completely understand your anger towards PCGS employees damaging your coin during their grading and encapsulation process. However, you need to channel some of that anger towards the people that determined the 15$ "value" and placing that number on the submission form.

It was probably done on every coin in the submission to keep the overall value of the package low so that the insurance fee would be lower. People do it all the time and 99.99% of the time nothing goes wrong and everybody is a happy camper. This time, something goes wrong, the coin gets damaged and you aren't happy.

The insurance fee covers not only loss during return shipment, but also covers loss or damage of your coin while in PCGS's possession. They are paying what the stated value was on the submission form because that is what the contract that was agreed to calls for.

Who said it was "worth"15$? Who signed the submission form? Those are the people that you need to seek recovery from.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add serial to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Who said it was "worth"15$? Who signed the submission form? Those are the people that you need to seek recovery from."
the PCGS Authorized Dealer who's details I obtained from the PCGS website who I had previously had no dealing with.
I was assure that the coins would be properly covered and did not receive a copy of the submission sheet despite requesting it in writing
I went to them because PCGS promoted them on their website
note
http://www.PCGS.com/billofrights.html
"CAREFUL HANDLING.
The customer's coins will be returned to the customer in the same condition they were in when the customer delivered them to the authorized dealer."

no where does it state the remedy for failing to maintain these rights or limitations on liability
I hold PCGS wholly responsible for their actions and the actions of their Agent
Pillar of the Community
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United States
1734 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  12:59 pm  Show Profile   Check jdmern's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to agree with some others, you need to take this up with the person who submitted the form. On every document that is signed and submitted with PCGS, it clearly states that their limit in liability is the DECLARED value of the coin. If it was put through as a $15 coin, they are not liable for a penny more than that. That being said, the person/company who submitted is not in a good spot. To save a few bucks, they opened themselves up to quite a bit of liability. Not sure how this would work in Australia, but here in the U.S. you would have an excellent case against the dealer, but not against PCGS
Pillar of the Community
United States
905 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  1:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tpg22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the great info on submissions. When I submit coins I always go about one grade higher on the price grade and use that dollar amount. I never use the amount I paid unless that is higher. If that is the case I go up to the grade that matches the price I paid.
Pillar of the Community
872 Posts
 Posted 11/07/2013  1:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collector-Corner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One thing to take into consideration is doing a photo match of your coin before it was slabbed and after. Ensure the coin is the right one.

They want to see the coin in the PCGS holder to ensure what your saying actually has happened. Right now its your word of damage against them without proof. What they ought to do is look the case and coin over and at that point, hopefully offer a better resolution.

Sure PCGS may have damamged the merchandise, but if the claim sheet was listed at $15.00, thats all PCGS is willing to pay, it seems fair. The unethical side may be with the person who submitted the paperwork. Those extra fees had to go somewhere, no ? If you or an authorized person signed the submission form, then unfortunately, it the accuracy of the insurance value lies with the person whom filled that portion of the form out. You might want to request a copy of the invoice that was submitted since it has charges that you incurred, and you want to examine it for any potential fraudulent charges.


However - Push the point that the coin was NOT damaged in shipment, and this is not a shipment claim. Its a claim of value against the handling of the coin in their establishment. The amount on the sheet is used for shipping and insurance of shipped goods, and it does not state its the declared value of the coin which is damaged during their handling.

Keeping a level head with the 3rd party service is key. If you let out too much, they will make the experience quite unpleasant.

If they cancelled the certificate of grading, the only option is to see if you can obatin the same cross over grade from another 3rd party service, like ANACS.

One other thing, some not all of the grading services will honor most requests for insurance based claims if a paperwork trail of the coins' cost can be documented. Lightly push the issue that they claim to have the power to adjust the value of any coin should it be insured for an amount less than its currently listed value. Ask why this wasn't done after the coin was processed. Ask to speak with some one thats in charge of handling disputes. Get EVERYTHING done via email for a documentation trail. Over the phone conversations are hearsay.

Once you get as much data from them, tell them thanks and walk away, and say, oh by the way, I am going to let the other 3rd party grading services know about this experience, and they should cringe.

Write the entire coin off as a loss on next years' taxes. If you have home owners' or renters insurance, explain the ordeal and see if they offer any compensation. What you were doing was in good faith, rather than what happened at PCGS.

It looks like they might have tried to crack it out of another slab. they probably used a slab that was slightly too small and after sonically sealing it, they had an issue. They attempted to remove it from the orignal holder and put it in this one. Otherwise, the shard would be in the bottom of this slab somewhere.
Edited by Collector-Corner
11/07/2013 1:37 pm
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