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PCGS Has Damaged My Coin

 
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2013  06:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add serial to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well again let me state that the dealer I used is one I obtained from PCGS website. I had not dealt with him preciously and only used him as a result of visiting the PCGS website that assured me that the PCGS Authorized Dealer would look after my interest in lodging the coins
also you stated "Technically anyone with a PCGS membership is an authorized submitter to them it's just that individuals wouldn't want to be listed on their website"
this isn't actually the point. Whilst you can submit coins on behalf of others you have to apply to be a " PCGS Authorized Dealer" and appear on the PCGS website. you have to agree to a code of conduct and met certain criteria. see linky's
http://www.PCGS.com/billofrights.html
http://www.PCGS.com/becomedealer.html
in my opinion this means that they are acting as an agent to PCGS and as such PCGS is vicariously liable for the agents actions.
Hence my issue is with PCGS, 1st by damaging the coin, then by not resolving the issue fairly. Instead they have relied on the incompetent or unethical actions of the PCGS Authorized Dealer to reduce their liability to $15 then done nothing to sooth my distress at the whole situation.
If this was a company in Australia they would already have a notice of intention to sue on there desk. I have no chance of pursuing this through the courts as they are a US company and it is not worth me flying to California to pursue this.
so instead I am just naming and shaming them.
remember that I did nothing wrong, I followed the advice of PCGS and the PCGS Authorized Dealer yet I am the only one out of pocket here
it could be you next
Pillar of the Community
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United States
1734 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2013  09:26 am  Show Profile   Check jdmern's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Serial- I completely agree you are the one who's lost out. It's your coin, your money, your time, your effort. It's terrible. You're getting angry at the wrong party here though. The dealer that submitted it is the one you should be giving the terrible publicity to. I for one would love to avoid any interactions with this dealer who completely screwed you over. In any business, mistakes are made. That's why PCGS covers themselves with as much of the legal liability stuff as they do. They did not maliciously destroy your coin, it was obviously a mistake, more than likely by whoever it is who physically puts it into the slab. Bottom line was you got fleeced by the dealer here, and that's who should be making things right with you.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1580 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2013  11:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jpbone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would feel pretty awkward blaming the dealer for something he didn't do. If I personally did something like this, I would feel bad and pay a fair price to the person and apologize. My god, the fact this conversation is even taking place is making my eyes bug out. They destroyed the mans coin. Compensate him.

What is probably happening is their lawyers (roll eyes) are advising the situation or have policy in order to not set a precedent. If they compensate him, then what about the guy who's coin they damaged that was worth one million dollars etc. He would be owed.

I think that even the people who are "siding" with PCGS, still think they are handling this pretty crappy. Surely this will do more than a few hundred bucks worth of damage to their business. I can tell you that I have a lot of coins I have been thinking of submitting, but now, this is just another reason not to (I like to leave my coins in the wild). If for no other reason to not support a company that can not empathize with the little guy. If he were one of these fools on TV that sends in thousands of coins, he would be taken care of promptly and fairly, trust me.
Pillar of the Community
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United States
3317 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2013  11:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Instead they have relied on the incompetent or unethical actions of the PCGS Authorized Dealer to reduce their liability to $15
No, they did not.

It's amazing how eager you are to deflect ANY comment about the dealer away from them, while the dealer is the party whom you might have a gripe with.


Quote:
If this was a company in Australia they would already have a notice of intention to sue on there desk.
I doubt you flew to another country to submit your coins. So, where is the dealer - with whom you MAY have a gripe - located? Australia? So declare your intent. The equivalent of the US Small Claims Court seems to be this, Minor Case Claims - for damages under AUS$10,000:

http://www.magistratescourt.wa.gov....tsheet_3.pdf, according to which you can even file electronically and not have to drive down to the court house, the forms are here: http://www.magistratescourt.wa.gov....e_forms.aspx

So, whom to sue... Let's see... PCGS lists just 8 dealers in Oz, and only one in Western Australia... so which one is it?

How about we contact them and give them a chance to show up and defend themselves?

Downies Coins Pty Ltd
+61 3 8456 8456 Abbotsford, Vic

Drake Sterling Numismatics Pty Ltd
Eric Eigner +61-421-229-821 Sydney

KJC Coins Australia Pty, LTD.
Kurt Jaggard +61 2 9290 1244 Sydney

Monetarium Adelaide PTY. LTD.
Steven Nugent 618-8232-6555 Adelaide

Newstyler Pty Ltd T/A Numis
John Haddad (03) 9018 7562 Moonah, TAS

Pacific Rim Coins, Pty Ltd.
Christopher Buesnell 02 9588 7111 North Sydney

Sterling & Currency
Andrew Crellin +61 8 6468 2467 Western Australia

Universal Coin Company
Peter August 03 9654 2997 Flinders Lane, Melbourne, VIC
-----Burton
45 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC
Owned by four cats and a wife of 35 years (joined 1983)
Pillar of the Community
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United States
1734 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2013  11:44 am  Show Profile   Check jdmern's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What the dealer did do, is severely undervalue the coin in order to make a larger profit on his submission fees/save a couple of bucks. Sounds stupid, but when you are relying on other entities than yourself on behalf of another person, you need to cover yourself. Someone signed a contract that is legally binding- From the sounds of it, the dealer. PCGS has fulfilled their duty in the contract- They offered exactly what the DEALER valued the coin as. If the dealer had valued the coin at $500 on the forms and then PCGS tried saying that the coin was only worth $15, well then I would have a completely different opinion on everything. But from the information that has been presented here, I honestly can say that I have no issue with PCGS here. Jpbone is exactly right with the issue of precedent, that is exactly why they cannot just do that. That would also allow sleazy dealers to submit tons of coins for people, severely undervalue them, pocket the money they saved rather than insure them properly, and if something goes wrong, just expect PCGS to pick up the check. If the dealer is going to knowingly undervalue something in order to increase his own profits, that is equivalent to self insurance by the dealer.

Again, serial, I am not trying to sound callous or like I'm just simply "on PCGS's" side, as I stated before, you are the one who has lost out here. I still think you could end up with a very favorable resolution, if only you went after the right entity, which in this case is the dealer. I just cannot see you getting anywhere with PCGS on this one, because they have the law on their side here.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2031 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2013  1:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add arianzo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The people is talking about who will be responsible for the coin but how in the heck a company like PCGS could have damaged a coin like that ?

So, the bad publicity against PCGS is not because they don't want to pay for a lost coin when it was shipped, we're talking about a coin that was directly damaged by them. I've seen recently many cases where individual like @serial spread the word through Facebook, twitter, popular web pages, etc, etc against well renowned companies like Peugeot, KFC, etc and at the end, the company apologized with the customer and assumed the costs.
PCGS should respond quickly because it's not the only grading company in the world ...
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United States
3317 Posts
 Posted 11/08/2013  2:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The people is talking about who will be responsible for the coin but how in the heck a company like PCGS could have damaged a coin like that ?


Well, any time humans are involved, accidents can happen. Sadly an irreplaceable numismatic item was destroyed.

But there is a good point here, PCGS needs to know it happened so they can look into their procedures. The individual who encapsulated the coin SHOULD have reported the damage. That way the 1st contact isn't the return of a damaged coin, but a CSR reaching out to the customer.

However, if they did, they would reach out to THEIR customer - the dealer - and we're back in the same loop.
-----Burton
45 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC
Owned by four cats and a wife of 35 years (joined 1983)
Valued Member
United States
373 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  12:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ProfLiz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is worth noting that at this point, PCGS has not seen the damaged coin. The OP has refused to send it to them. All PCGS has seen are photos of a damaged coin that allegedly is the same coin that their photos show to be intact.

Now, the OP knows he is not a scammer, but PCGS does not. At this point, can we really expect PCGS to offer the OP $500 sight unseen?

PCGS does guarantee the grade of their slabbed coins, or they will refund the difference in value between the slabbed grade and the determined actual grade. This applies to any owner of a PCGS graded coin. And as has been noted earlier, this is a route one could take to recover the value from PCGS.

But to take advantage of the guarantee - or to come to any other resolution - the owner MUST send the coin to PCGS.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1580 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  12:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jpbone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent and seemingly obvious point that I hadn't thought about.
Pillar of the Community
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United States
9213 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  02:39 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
PCGS does guarantee the grade of their slabbed coins, or they will refund the difference in value between the slabbed grade and the determined actual grade. This applies to any owner of a PCGS graded coin. And as has been noted earlier, this is a route one could take to recover the value from PCGS.

But to take advantage of the guarantee - or to come to any other resolution - the owner MUST send the coin to PCGS.


While this sounds good and reasonable, I do not believe it is factual. The owner of this coin is the OP who had it submitted with an assigned value of $15.

The guarantee applies to subsequent owners who purchased the coin at the market price for the given coin in the grade PCGS assigned. That's a key difference and one that other submitters in the past have had to accept. The circumstances here are a bit different but the theory is the same.

Sending the coin to PCGS could result in them keeping the coin and the OP getting a $15 check.
ANA #R3154474
Edited by BH1964
11/09/2013 02:40 am
Pillar of the Community
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United States
3317 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  03:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The certification appears to have been cancelled. A search for "site:PCGS.com Travancore 777888" finds it in Google's cache (for how long?) but is no longer available on the PCGS site.

So it's unlikely you could sell it.
-----Burton
45 year / Life ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC
Owned by four cats and a wife of 35 years (joined 1983)
Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  06:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add serial to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all for your comments, I understand where you are all coming from. PCGS has made it clear that the guarantee does not apply to me as I own the coin, so the guarantee will only apply if I sell the coin as MS64 and the subsequent owner makes a claim against PCGS guarantee. Not that I can now sell it anyway as they have cancelled the certificate.
Putting the value of the coin and the fair compensation aside. The reason I sent the coin to be graded and encapsulated is because I wanted to ensure it was protected and preserved. I never intended to sell the coin. This was one of the lowest value coins I sent in that batch, my first batch, I genuinely liked the coin. I thought I did everything right, I thought that going through an authorised PCGS dealer was the safest option as I would be guided by their expertise. I paid extra for the fact that I used the services of an authorised PCGS dealer.
My coins were sent off, and I could not wait to get them back. As the two months mark approached I regularly checked PCGS population report to see if the coins had been graded. I was so excited when I did the search and realised that newly high graded coins were entered in the population report, and then I saw the pictures of my coins on the PCGS website. I was ecstatic and could hardly wait to get the coins back. I was already going through my coins and pulling out the ones I intended to send off for grading in the next batch.
A few days later I received a call from the PCGS authorised dealer advising that my coins have been received and I can pick them up. I went to the dealer's office ASAP, a significant drive from my house, I quickly checked they were all there and went home so I can have a proper look at them.
I arrived home, still exited to have the coins back in my hands, and started looking through them, when I saw the mutilated Travancore 1/2 Rupee in the PCGS capsule. I called the dealer straight away and asked if they looked at the coins properly when they received them, he said he didn't. I told him my coin was damaged and described the damage to him, he responded by saying that he is not aware of something like this happening before. He did not appear interested so I obtained the submission number from him and contacted PCGS. That was on 2 October.
I am mad with the dealer because he did not protect my interest, even though I paid him to do so. I can say that I will never trust or use his services again.
I am absolutely devastated that my coin has been damaged by PCGS, I can never get another one like it, that's why most of my anger is currently aimed at PCGS. For most of its life the coin was stored in an envelope among other coins, it survived without being badly scratched, rubbed or damaged until I sent it to PCGS to have it graded and encapsulated.
All that being said, I am extremely disappointed with the conduct from the PCGS operations manager. My devastation aside, and the fact that I entrusted professionals to handle my coins safely, I can understand that sometimes sh*t happens. Throughout all this back and forth with PCGS's customer service and operations manager since 2 October, they have been so cagey. All they seemed interested in was to get the coin back in their possession. They told me that "if PCGS did in fact damage your coin we typically buy the coin back from you". I asked them what they would consider a fair settlement for the damage to my coin (of course with the understanding that they still need to view the coin to see what damage has occurred). They kept avoiding it and would not answer me.
I got so frustrated with the whole thing and phoned the operations manager who finally said that the declared value of the coin on submission was $15 therefore that's all they would offer. As insulting as that was, my issue is with the fact that I feel they were trying to deceive me. If in fact that is their policy and all they were going to offer me in the end anyway was only the $15 (being the declared value on the submission), then why were they not upfront about it from the start, why did they continue to avoid telling me this and kept trying to convince me to just send them the coin.
My theory is that should I have sent the coin back to PCGS, I probably would have never seen the coin again, or if I did it would have been removed from the PCGS capsule. They probably would have reimbursed the cost of grading and paid the $15.
Note that the dealer asked PCGS "can you explain please what the PCGS policy is regarding replacement (re the declared value), and if the coin can be returned to the buyer for any reason once PCGS has had the opportunity to examine it." PCGS sent the terms and conditions but failed to answer the enquiry regarding the coin being returned to me. I am glad that I did not trust them and did not just send it back. I would much rather keep it as a reminder and a lesson learnt.
The more important question now is where to from here? I had so many more coins which I was intending to send to PCGS for grading. I do not have the confidence to do that anymore, especially with the coins that I really like and intend to keep. I do not trust PCGS to be open and honest. If they came to me and explained the situation and were reasonable about it, it would be different. In my eyes they have now lost all integrity.
I feel I was lucky in a way that I received the damaged coin in an encapsulated, tamper proof PCGS case, and that fact that PCGS took and posted a photo of my coin on their website showing it was not damaged when they received/graded it.
Now having been though the experience of dealing with PCGS customer service and the operations manager I wonder ... What would have happened if PCGS realized that they damaged my coin and did not place the photo of my undamaged coin on their site, but instead just returned the coin bagged, ungraded due to damage that they could have claimed was there when they received it. What then? It would have been my word against theirs? No one would have believed me.
PCGS damaging the coin and claiming they received it damaged would have been an immoral thing of PCGS to do, and most people (including me) would not expect that from a "reputable" company like PCGS. Well, now that I have been though this recent experience, I am not so sure.
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United States
23520 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  08:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The more important question now is where to from here? I had so many more coins which I was intending to send to PCGS for grading. I do not have the confidence to do that anymore, especially with the coins that I really like and intend to keep. I do not trust PCGS to be open and honest. If they came to me and explained the situation and were reasonable about it, it would be different. In my eyes they have now lost all integrity.


Try posting this story over at the Collectors' Universe forum (PCGS' in-house forum). You'll see how they really roll then, when your thread disappears within a half hour.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
539 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  08:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add serial to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"
Try posting this story over at the Collectors' Universe forum (PCGS' in-house forum). You'll see how they really roll then, when your thread disappears within a half hour."
challenge accepted!
I will time it and let you know
Bedrock of the Community
United States
15939 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  2:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And they may ban you as well.
Gary Schmidt
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