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Post Your Canadian Tokens

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 Posted 09/10/2021  12:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I've been shopping for 1811-1820 tokens of England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and the Channel Islands for going on 40 years now, and I'd estimate 80-90% of my purchases have originated in the U.K. What's particularly interesting about the Ords token is that I almost never see it on sale there -- in any condition or die state -- but instead the overwhelming majority are offered by Canadian and US sellers. That leads me to more theories and speculation...


That's an interesting point! Do you think it's a matter of the scarcity of the token itself in the UK, or rather a lack of demand?

I guess at the end of the day McLachlan believed its presence in the hoard warranted its inclusion as a separate entry in his monograph. It's notable that apparently, all 25 pieces were the weakly struck "no legend" type. Maybe, in the setting aside the hoard, these were confused with the more notorious Bust & Harps?

As you say, it would be irresponsible not to speculate!


Gebs, nice example of the 1/4 dollar anchor!
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Canada
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 Posted 09/10/2021  10:25 pm  Show Profile   Check Wade's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"so called" Canadian tokens are abundant (ie anticosti island & anchor money) and in some cases no one knows where/when they came from or what their initial intended use was for.
bottom line, if they circulated in Canada prior to 1858 then I would count them as "Canadian". just sayin'

Coin Collecting... "I'm in it for the money" ™
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 Posted 09/12/2021  10:53 pm  Show Profile   Check daltonista's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

This "Trade & Navigation" farthing is another one of those split-personality tokens that circulated on both sides of the Atlantic...but evidently not in any appreciable quantities, as it's considered quite rare in the here and now. Aside from the fact that it's a farthing -- and very few of those have emerged among the early 19th-century British or Canadian exonumia -- it's unusual because the obverse features a huge disfigurement that basically obliterates the token's denomination.

Here are the two examples in my collection, separate varieties differentiated from one another only by their die rotation. The first is the medal turn, while the second is coinage.

Breton 964; Courteau 5NL; Charlton NS-18A1; Withers 1659.

Breton 964; Courteau 5NL; Charlton NS-18A2; Withers 1659.

Over the years, what I've found particularly interesting about this piece is the number of different descriptions we've been provided by various cataloguers, several of whom, like Charlton, neglect to even mention the die "anomaly" at all. That sort of oversight makes me wonder whether those distinguished numismatists ever handled or even looked at this token before writing about it! An alternative scenario (but pretty farfetched, I suppose) would be that there are examples of this Trade & Navigation farthing out there showing an unblemished three-line denomination.

In chronological order, here are a few of the ways in which this token has been presented:

"A Heap of Copper ore." Batty 2576, in his Descriptive Catalog of the Copper Coinage, etc., 1877:

[Blames the "indistinct" denomination on the overstrike.] McLachlan, in A Descriptive Catalog of Coins, Tokens and Medals [...of Canada, etc.], 1886:

[No mention, and a miscount of only two lines for the denomination.] Atkins 256, in The Coins and Tokens of the Possessions and Colonies of the British Empire, 1889:

[No mention.] McLachlan, in Annals of the Nova Scotian Currency in "Transactions of the Royal Society of Canada," Vol. 10), 1892:

"A view of rocks." Davis, Not Local 118, in The Nineteenth Century Token Coinage, etc., 1904:

"A pile of rocks." Spink, for sale in their Numismaatic Circular, July 1906:

"View of rocks." Kent, in his Valuation of British Coins and Tokens, 1913:

[No mention.] Courteau, The Non-Local Tokens of Canada in "The Numismatist," May 1924:

"...an attempt by an apprentice to re-cut an old die." Withers 1659, in British Copper Tokens: 1811-1820, 1999:

"...a really badly recut die." Withers 1659, in The Token Book, 2010:

For the record, the Trade & Navigation farthings were overstruck on this British token:

Withers 490, Davis Somersetshire 119, issued by the Patent Sheathing Nail Manufactory of Bristol.


Please share your photos here if you've got one of these elusive tokens, and also any old catalog listings for it that I may have overlooked!

Best to all ~
Tom

I never pay too much for my tokens...but every now and then I may buy one a little too soon.
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 Posted 09/13/2021  8:44 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@daltonista - here is my PCGS EF45 NS-18A1

Nice job on the catalogue listings.

Edited by 1960NYGiants
09/13/2021 8:46 pm
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 Posted 09/17/2021  03:03 am  Show Profile   Check TerryT's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add TerryT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wellington WE-1A1. Overstruck on another token. I always wondered why Wellington's eye looked funny and now I see he has the P and part of the E of PENNY on his face.
Large split on the reverse.







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 Posted 09/17/2021  07:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I really like that token, Terry!
Edited by okiecoiner
09/17/2021 07:04 am
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 Posted 09/17/2021  12:20 pm  Show Profile   Check ainsivalavie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ainsivalavie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Daltonista: Please share your photos here if you've got one of these elusive tokens, and also any old catalog listings for it that I may have overlooked!

Great summary you made Daltonista.

I did not notice the mention of Pierre Napoleon Breton in his book of 1894 «Illustrated History of Coins and Tokens relating to Canada»:


To my knowledge, this token is not mentioned by Leroux. On the other hand, Willey also gives a description of this token in the CNJ (but it is still under copyright for a scan... This is also the case for some other).
Sorry if my English is not perfect, I'm still learning...
Edited by ainsivalavie
09/17/2021 12:20 pm
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 Posted 09/17/2021  5:21 pm  Show Profile   Check daltonista's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

ainsivalavie, thank you for picking up on my oversight. I'd originally left out all of the citations that ignored the weird "rocks" obliterating the denomination, but then decided to include them...but then somehow overlooked Breton, which I'd also scanned and saved into a folder with the rest of them. Next time, I'll add more caffeine!

Quote:
You added: "Willey also gives a description of this token in the CNJ (but it is still under copyright for a scan...)"


I'm confident we'd be covered by the Fair Use Doctrine built into U.S. copyright law, which permits incidental, not-for-profit reproduction "...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research..."

ainsivalavie, if you're uncomfortable scanning it, can you tell us by paraphrase -- perhaps in a sentence or two -- what Willey had to say about this token? I didnl't find it listed at all in any of my old Haxby-Willey catalogs (most recent: 1986), or in my 1970 Somer James "Guidebook."

1960NYGiants, your example has more eye appeal than either of mine, but grading-wise it looks to be maybe a half-grade ahead, would you agree? (Mine might improve considerably if I ever switch from using a scanner back to my super-macro Olympus set-up!)

I never pay too much for my tokens...but every now and then I may buy one a little too soon.
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 Posted 09/17/2021  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Check ainsivalavie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ainsivalavie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm confident we'd be covered by the Fair Use Doctrine built into U.S. copyright law, which permits incidental, not-for-profit reproduction "...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research..."

ainsivalavie, if you're uncomfortable scanning it, can you tell us by paraphrase -- perhaps in a sentence or two -- what Willey had to say about this token? I didnl't find it listed at all in any of my old Haxby-Willey catalogs (most recent: 1986), or in my 1970 Somer James "Guidebook."

@Daltonista:
Here is the quote in question:

«The Canadian Numismatic Journal - Vol. 24 - No. 11 - Colonial Coinages of Canada - Part VIII» by Robert C. Willey (1979):

I have a few other books in my library that also mention this token. If I have time, I will try to post a scan of these.
Sorry if my English is not perfect, I'm still learning...
Edited by ainsivalavie
09/17/2021 7:25 pm
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 Posted 09/17/2021  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@daltonista "1960NYGiants, your example has more eye appeal than either of mine, but grading-wise it looks to be maybe a half-grade ahead, would you agree? (Mine might improve considerably if I ever switch from using a scanner back to my super-macro Olympus set-up!)"

I think your 18A2 is equal to my 18A1.

Your 18A1 is probably VF25-30. The surfaces look a little off to me.

Both of your pieces look like brick red colored on my monitor which leads me to believe they were cleaned.

FYI - I do not have an 18A2 in my collection.
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 Posted 09/17/2021  10:46 pm  Show Profile   Check daltonista's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

ainsivalavie: Thank you for the Willey clip...another [no mention]. I'm guessing that the early catalogers who failed to mention the monstrous central die anomaly simply hadn't seen the token and were just repackaging information they'd picked up from other sources.

1960NYGiants: Coloring for both is fine in hand...nice shades of brown and no hint of cleaning that I can see. I'm sure any distortion stems from my cheapo Canon all-in-one printer, combined with my use of the "auto-adjust colors" function in my photo editor (IrfanView 64-bit). Using that seems to tweak the contrast and simulate some depth of field, which of course doesn't exist in any image saved off a flatbed scanner. I guess we'd call that "relief" on a coin or token.

I never pay too much for my tokens...but every now and then I may buy one a little too soon.
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Canada
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 Posted 09/20/2021  12:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Daltonista, thank you for that fantastic synopsis of the Trade and Navigation farthing!

One observation I have noticed in looking at your examples, in addition to that posted by 1960NYGiants, is that there are two "FAR-THING TOKEN" imprints that occur at an angle to each other. The first is in accordance with the orientation of the reverse, and its blundered appearance is consistent on every example (in an apparent attempt for its obliteration?) However, the 2nd and more intriguing is at a ~110° counterclockwise (ccw) rotation on your 18A1, ~135° ccw on your 18A2, and ~225° ccw on 1960NYGiants's 18A1.

My first thought is that it seems to be some sort of post-strike stamp that was used to imprint the "FAR-THING TOKEN" denomination through the blundered denomination on the die, which may have been purposefully gouged out to provide a suitable surface for the stamp.

If you have a closer look at the blundered regions on your examples please let me know what you think!

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 Posted 09/20/2021  8:17 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Blargish - I'm not sure what you mean. I think the host coin rotation in relation to the overstriking dies are in 3 different location for the 3 examples shown.

My piece shows the parallel lines under the ship running from 2 to 11 o'clock.
Daltonista's 18A1 the line are vertical from 7 to 11 o'clock.
Daltonista's 18A2 the lines are from 8 o'clock to 12 o'clock.

I believe the overstriking die was obliterated in an attempt to remove / hide the original denomination so that these could be passed as 1/2 d's in Canada.
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