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The Conder Token Thread

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 Posted 09/15/2020  9:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Imo discovery pieces many times are difficult to get recognized and it may have also been struck from original dies at a later date. Does this have the same diameter as the copper piece? 80% silver is not plated and I have seen so many early American tokens that have been silver washed. An edge test would have confirmed that though no grading service will perform anything like that to your piece. Have you tried reaching out to the ANS or someone associated with TAMS?
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 Posted 09/16/2020  05:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@cointagous .... Thanks for the kindly reply. I've owned a number of examples of these copper slavery tokens, and the size, diameter of this piece is comparable. I long collected abolitionist tokens/medals in general. I agree that 80% silver is NOT what I'd call plated.

I've not reached out to TAMS or the ANS. I've been thinking about submitting a query to E-sylum, in hopes of finding an authoritative source. I'd rather focus on finding a knowledgeable individual. The few "silver" conders that I've been able to spot all seem or are deemed to be plated; this, although no mention of the percentage of silver content is cited. Are there any other 80% silver conders out there? Interestingly, I do have an 80% silver McClellan medal from 1864, so that percentage may be significant. I'm wondering if anyone has done a study of the metal content of 18th & 19th century tokens? Do you know of any authoritative conder specialists?
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 Posted 09/17/2020  11:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do not know anyone who specializes in the area that would be able to advance your knowledge of the piece you have. While I have seen white metal condor pieces, I have never come across any that are silver before so have no comparison. What about contacting Spink & Sons as they specialize in European coins, tokens and ephemera? Wish I could help further as it's an interesting piece.

https://www.spink.com/site/contact
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 Posted 09/17/2020  11:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@cointageous .... Thanks for that suggestion. I'm going to explore a few other avenues, first.
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147 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2020  12:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ExoGuy - Just saw your query on E-Sylum. Hope you'll let us know here what you're able to find out!

If that doesn't turn anything up, I'd suggest you e-mail a few people who have handled Conders every day for years...just to ask whether they've ever encountered such a thing. Folks like Allan Davisson or his son Leif (Davisson's); Peter Preston-Morley (DNW); Paul or Bente Withers (Galata); or Merfyn Williams (The Last Druid). My go-to guy on Conders used to be Bill McKivor (Copper Corner), but of course he's thoroughly retired now. Let me know if you need any contact info, and best of luck with it...I'm sure all of us here are hoping you've got the discovery coin!

Wash your hands, everybody!
Tom
"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
Edited by daltonista
09/22/2020 12:19 am
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 Posted 09/22/2020  05:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@daltonista .... Thanks, Tom! I much appreciate the contacts you've provided. I thought, what better way to reach out to seasoned numismatists and exonumists about this potentially important token than E-sylum? I'll wait-see what responses I get, if any, prior to contacting the folks you cited.

One thought of mine is that, if perchance not vintage, 1790's, this silver piece might be an early restrike, created on this side of the pond. The 80% silver mix might be a clue? I thought that, if any TPG service had knowledge of silver conders, it'd be NGC.

For NGC to willy-nilly call this piece "plated" is admittedly irksome to me. They obviously didn't test it to confirm the silver content percentage that I provided! I fully expected more professionalism on their part; this, given that they had the token for over three months. Their "plated" message was penned on a sticky-note.
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 Posted 09/22/2020  10:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I'm back with more, ExoGuy...

Right off the bat, I'm going to bet that 99% of Conders showing up on eBay as "silver plated" are either solid silver or silver-washed. Although my collecting specialty for the last 15+ years has been the 1811-20 token series (Davis/Withers coppers and Dalton silver) I've been collecting GB and "British World" exonumia for 35-40 years so I guess I've got some strong feelings about that.

I hasten to concede that there is of course the possibility that some Conders were plated post-release as jewelry items, and they'd probably be holed or show some evidence of mounting, but the numbers that were plated with silver at the time of issue, whether for collectors or circulation, has got to be microscopically small. Only three or four show up at all in D&H, which is my lead-in to...

I have a PDF of D&H on my computers, and a quick word search turns up a couple of starter clues for you (maybe).




As a general tip for our fellow Conderites, here are three SEARCHABLE primary sources available free for online use and/or download:
_______________________________

Atkins, James. The tradesmen's tokens of the eighteenth century. 1892

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt...ew=1up&seq=8
________________________________

Kent, G. C. British metallic coins and tradesmen's tokens with their value from 1600-1912. 1912

https://archive.org/details/british...c00kentuoft/
__________________________

D&H (1910) silver plated, 3-4.

https://www.scribd.com/document/206664745/
_________________________

Happy hunting!
Tom
"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
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 Posted 09/22/2020  10:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
P.S. Don't get me started on NGC!
"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
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 Posted 09/22/2020  11:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@daltonista .... Thanks, Tom! This is an important piece to the puzzle. D&H acknowledges that there was not only a contemporary silver plated slave token, albeit a different variety, but also a silver one. (While I've owned a number of conder tokens over the years, I never purchased a D&H catalog.) Now, I wonder if someone, somewhere ever measured the silver percentage in that piece?
Valued Member
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147 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2020  1:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

My apologies if I misled you, ExoGuy...not my intention at all. The reference I included to silver-plated coppers appears on page 185, which is full of M-Sex National Series tokens...see specific D&H numbers in the screen snip I included in my post.

There are no more than 3-4 other uses of the word "plated" in all of D&H that could refer to silver, and none tied to a slavery token. (Interestingly, there are a handful of tokens noted as copper-plated.) Once upon a time, I had three of the "Glorious Revolution" tokens that appear on that page, all scalloped. One was copper, one silver, and the third had a silver wash. That leads me to wonder whether (if not believe that) D&H's nomenclature used the term "plated" as the equivalent of what we call "washed," especially since, per that footnote, D&H 948 evidently came in all three flavors (plus gilt, which as we know was a wash, too).

Because these weren't regal coinage, I'd speculate that not too much attention was paid to fineness, neither by the issuers nor by the catalogers, so -- again, just my bet -- you've probably got the "silver" version, the existence of which is alluded to in the other screenshot I posted earlier, as opposed to a plated variety.

Just a hunch. After all, nobody was promising sterling with these, right?

By the way, ExoGuy, if you don't mind my asking, what's your "real" collection?

PS ~ Just did another word search of D&H, this time on the term "wash." Lots of Washingtons came up, and two washings (in connection with Kinrosshire 1), but nothing even remotely related to metallurgical content, thus strengthening my hunch. (If you search the other two reference works I cited above, perhaps you'd find something else.)

"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
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 Posted 09/23/2020  01:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

One of my few remaining Conders, this a Birmingham Poet penny, Warwickshire D&H30. Looks like my scanner doesn't handle reflective lustre very well...

"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
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 Posted 09/23/2020  09:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My apologies if I misled you, ExoGuy...not my intention at all. The reference I included to silver-plated coppers appears on page 185, which is full of M-Sex National Series tokens...see specific D&H numbers in the screen snip I included in my post.


@Tom .... Don't think I'm confused, but then again, most confused folks likely think they're not confused; hence, their confusion!

What I get out of your post is that D&H differentiated between silver plated and silver varieties within the conder series at large .... Did they not? I'm then wondering how they distinguished one from the other?


Quote:
By the way, ExoGuy, if you don't mind my asking, what's your "real" collection?


By "real" collection, Tom, I presume you mean principal. Assuming so, it's American merchant counterstamps. I focus on the 19th century issues, primarily pre 1866. I've long thought this to be the "final frontier" of American exonumia. So much knowledge has yet to be found and published about this genre. I long collected U.S. type coins, and this counterstamp pursuit combines my love of coins with the exonumia aspects. I enjoy pegging attributions, solving the puzzles of who stamped the coins, when, where and sometimes why. Along the way, doing research, I get glimpses of early American life.

I've long collected Civil War tokens and still have an affinity for them. I've formed dozens of mini-collections of exonumia, but the counterstamps tend to get 90% of my attention; this, given my ability for making hundreds of "discovery" finds.


BTW, I've not before seen your "poet's penny" before, so I'm guessing it's a scarce item. I've long felt that conders, often found in high grades, are generally undervalued. I've parted company with hundreds of mine. What's your present collecting focus?
Valued Member
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147 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2020  02:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Replying in installments so I can figure out what I said in my initial response that set off alarms in Headquarters and caused the site administrators to block it.

To continue...

Quote:
What I get out of your post is that D&H differentiated between silver plated and silver varieties within the Conder series at large .... Did they not? I'm then wondering how they distinguished one from the other?

I agree...the distinction is certainly evident in D&H. It would take more of an expert than I to answer your question, however, and also mine, which was whether catalogers may have introduced some fuzziness between the terms "silver" and "silver-plated," and whether "silver-plated" referred to what we now call "silver wash."
"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
Valued Member
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147 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2020  02:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Reply #2 to ExoGuy...

Your collecting "focus" is certainly research-oriented...I enjoy that thrill of the chase too with my unknowns and mysteries, two of which are live in these forums even as I type.

In the c/m department, I had a bit of correspondence in the June 14th E-Sylum about a US 1855 half-dollar with a c/s advertising a "milk depot" in Albany, NY, which is not far from where I live. I knew the general neighborhood and was able to send a 2020 photograph of the building where the merchant had operated, and maybe where the coin was counterstamped. You can find the happy ending at Stack's/Bowers (Lot 178 in their June 2020 "Numismatic Americana" sale).
"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
Valued Member
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147 Posts
 Posted 09/24/2020  02:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Reply #3 to ExoGuy...

[Censored text removed here for further analysis.]

Speaking of which, that's what this thread is supposed to be about, so here's my contribution, another Warwickshire piece, D&H 120, this one advertising Bisset's Museum in Birmingham.

"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
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