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Fake 1760 & 1767 Mexico 8 Real Columnarios ?

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Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:03 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi There
I have liked columnarios for a long time, but never bought anything larger than 1R or 2R until recently, and never online before.
After receiving my recent eBay purchases I've been inspecting my precious pieces but after some reading in the forums I have now some serious questions whether these are fake and I should promptly return to the eBay sellers. Attached are the front and back pictures.

The 1767 silvered color one seems to be OK to the naked eye, however I have couple concerns, One the edge looks similar to what it should be, but not quite. What do you think? Each flower is also slightly different from one another. Many are alike, but there are also some shorter ones, thicker ones, thinner ones within the rim. could be die triking deformation on the edge? or evidence of fake?
I'll add pictures of these shortly. I couldnt find clearly any overlapping either. There is a good 1/5 of the edge or so that is mostly distroyed. a lot of little holes, like bubbles, that I first though may be ocean corrosion. But what do you think? Could be marks of cast reproduction? One of the overlaps could be in this area. On the opposite side there's no clear overalap but one shorter leave.
I will also like to bring to your attention what looks like some dots within the Mo mint mark. Looking at it live with a 10x instrument, these clearly show to be no stains, but 3D metal bubbles, similar to the ones present when you solder metal and tiny drops of molten metal fly and land somewhere. Could this be an indication of a cast / fake coin?
Im no expert but Id assume any such bubble would be flattend by a die at the time of strinking? In any case, would look somewhat worn over the years, right? These look pretty fresh to me. My scanner cant do better resolution, but I can try other photographing options if necessary.
similar bubbles appear on the other side, (see detail)on the HISPAN "H", above the middle. The 8 in 8 reales denomination also has a little mark that seems to be as if something covered a piece of it during striking and was later removed (a black piece remains to the right) leaving a dent on the protruding 8. Would all these mean casting and a fake?
my digital scale does grams, but only whole numbers not fractions. Weight for this one is 26g (rounded by the scale), so no obvious concerns there, although there is no oxide or patina. Could have been cleaned, or just a fake contemporary of a non silver metal.
Your inputs are deeply appreciated. More details on the other (dark 1760 coin) below. Thanks !
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2432 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Check alganbagerap's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add alganbagerap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You've had a no show with your pictures I'm afraid. Quickest fix is to use an outside image hosting site like Photobucket or similar. Upload your pics to the host then click on "image" and paste them into your question.
Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I'm working on uploading the pictures at this very moment. It seems they need some resizing first :)
Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply










Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can you please post a complete picture, and a clear picture of the coin's rim ?
Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Im in the process of uploading the images... the rest will be there shortly.... Thanks !!
Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply




Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are complete pictures of the pieces. Hopefully details can still be appreciated with all the downsizing required to have them upload. I'll be sharing pics of the rim next. In the meantime, let me comment on the darker 1760 8R.
This shows a very porus surface, what I believed at first could be long term oxidation / corrosion. Maybe even sea corrosion?. Details seemed to look ok (again I'm not the expert) although edge still has some issues. The outer part of the edge seems ok, but the center is much more "illegible" and seems more continous, like a bar in the middle, except for a few instances. Could this be a cast fake where a portion of the edge was cast on each half and only the middle of the edge is where this would show?
My concern is because of two details. One is weight. This only weights 22gr. Could corrosion or even loss from sea salt make it that low in an authentic?
The other is a little hole to the right of the lower lobe of the 8. It seems to be a void (like air bubble) within molten metal product of the melting process. Actually all the pores I originally attributed to corrosion, at this point I'm not sure whether are really that or may be just gross marks of a cast. Close to the bigger hole mentioned, there seem to be other small ones (detail picture below), one or two almost seems like contain a small metal ball inside too, like if it was a small bubble of molten metal and then was pushed inside in one of these pores. Again your comments are welcome and certainly appreciated.
PS the brownish stain which I originally though could be silver oxide on the naked eye seems to be more like something else. Look thick with the 10x, like varnish or caramel. Is not caramel as it didnt disolve in plain water, but is similar kind of sunstance with some 3D volume.
Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  4:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

It doesn quite show on this pic, but the hole looks shiny and not worn at the inside. Like almost very recent
shouldnt an original hole of a coin with this much overall corrosion/wear not show similar texture inside a hole in its surface assuming its original?

Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are pics for the edge of the 1767 (light color piece) at various points of the circumference.







Pillar of the Community
United States
4256 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  7:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On the 1760, 22 grams is just way too low a weight. I also don't like the wide space between the top of the crown and the "E". Plus the fields simply shouldn't have all those obvious cavities. I wouldn't have any confidence in its authenticity (these have been widely counterfeited for centuries, after all). If you really want to put the final nail in the coffin, you should get a measurement of its specific gravity. I'll bet it comes in at less than 10.

The 1767 isn't as egregious, but its denticles look awfully ragged, and I'm bothered by what you're saying with respect to the "destroyed" edge as well, which could be evidence of an incomplete casting. In any event, if these coins came from the same source, I'd say it's presumptively suspect, too.

Finally, if you're going to be dabbling in these, you definitely need to get a more finely graduated scale.
Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
03/31/2014 7:40 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1514 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am not really an expert on these earlier 8 Reales but I do find the silver washed (not silver plated or a Sheffield type) 1760 piece MOST INTERESTING. I do not suspect THIS PIECE to be a modern fake. They are both fakes. See my current 8 Reales for sale on E-Bay under seller: johnmenc. The other piece I am not sure of its origin as it might be a modern alloy. I would sell the 1760 piece with a reserve of $50-100 on E-Bay. The other may be a modern fake or a modern cast (i.e., cast bubbles in small o above M in mintmark Mexico City) ... test the 1767 piece with a magnet and report back to this forum if attracted or not attracted. Either way it has minimal value as it does not appear to be a cast of the period.
We have a book coming out in early 2015 on fake 8 Reales from the American Numismatic Society ... it will explain these types of fakes ... keep an eye out for it ... let me know if you post it to eBay ...

John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
03/31/2014 9:14 pm
Valued Member
United States
55 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2014  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NewSpainLearner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They come from different sellers. The 1760 from an eBay seller carrying many different antiques and just a few coins. Maybe found it in an estate sale. The 1767 comes from a seller carrying mostly coins (but not exclusively) and focusing on Mexico pieces, so I'd assume he has better knowledge than the first seller and the know how to detect a fake before posting on eBay.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1561 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2014  06:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Being that you didn't own any pillar 8R previously (and considering that you're putting a decent amount of pondering into this AFTER the fact), I'm not sure why these (2) would be the ones you would start out with (and not at bargain prices, either)... BOTH are highly dubious at first glance alone.

As attributed well here:
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Copy-or-Fak...24188/g.html

The 1760, to confirm, is a modern copy. More of a replica than anything else, it has been around since the 60s, appearing at tourist shops, in replica type sets, etc. Multiple iterations have come from the same underlying mold, and the execution varies from fairly decent to rather poor - though the edge almost always IDs it as cast. This piece in question would be more towards the latter with its obvious worn plating. Aside from your purchase:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1760-M-VTRA...161254155041

See this rather similar piece:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEXICO-SPAN...261432752738

Plus these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1760-MO-MM-...171249378163
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1760-Mexico...291092206648
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1760-Mexico...321333476725
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1760-Mexico...221354979279

------

The 1767 doesn't appear to be too much better... It purports to be some sort of salvage (with the corrosion around the edges as if it were situated in a stack or row), but it is questionable at best from the photos. Also, not that this necessarily means anything, but there is no source I'm aware of which has produced any notable quantity of that year or surrounding dates.
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1222 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2014  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed with realeswatcher, he is one of the experts of these Mexican 8R in this forum.
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