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 Replies: 61 / Views: 12,829 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
Another textbook example of the cobs cut to this apparent ca. 15-16 gram standard (here 15.17g). Civitas's thoughts on it may be a bit imaginary considering that there seems to be evidence linking these to North Africa (really no Portuguese influence there aside from isolated offshore Cape Verde), but along the right path with the "local commerce" idea, I think: "Bolivia 8 Reales cut down to a 5 Real weight by Portugal, used in East African trade. This would signify primarily Mozambique, but possibly apply to Angola- neither of which issued substantial enough coinage to fill the needs of local commerce." http://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/civ...Default.aspx |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
One more cob cut around to this around this standard (this example 16.2g):  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
Also, another example has surfaced of a bust 8R cut similarly to the coins in question. 15.9g reported for this one... He has some very clear edge pictures posted as well - search cropped reales on a well-known online auction website. Looked through all of the French seller's batch and this is not one of them. The seller can be... ummmmm, yeah... but "most" of what he gets is simply bought from eBay or from auction houses. He offers no guess as to attribution:  Edited by realeswatcher
03/23/2016 2:48 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5328 Posts |
These are very interesting to speculate about but would anyone pay the Civitas price for an example of a cut down 8R with no solid attribution?
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
swamperbob : peoples will pay because they touched the exclusive hands of it's exclusive seller ! ;)
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Here is one I own, which was not cut in half but seems to have been cut by 1/2 real to make change as well (got it from coinworldtv in 2011). Weight : 12.19g   Edited by MathieuMa
03/24/2016 05:21 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1639 Posts |
Go to the Newman Numismatic Portal here to this CNL article on Standish Berry : http://www.newmanportal.org/library/book/514006April 2010, Colonial Newsletter - go to page 3504 How about this one - it brought $218,500 Standish Berry counterstamp on a CCC Cob. Ex. Eliasberg. Its traced XRF analysis and microstructure would prove very interesting. Many people believe a 19thC pedigree or important name pedigree (i.e., Eliasberg) means alot ... it could but its not everything? A very controversial piece. Two letters - a quarter million. JPL Edited by colonialjohn
03/24/2016 08:11 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
Quote:
These are very interesting to speculate about but would anyone pay the Civitas price for an example of a cut down 8R with no solid attribution? Quote:
peoples will pay because they touched the exclusive hands of it's exclusive seller ! ;) Mat, rather than this new piece, indeed from Mr. Exclusiva, Bob is referring to: https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ci...Default.aspxA speculator might... and/or a real expert in/aficionado of such types that may know (or may THINK they know) something others don't... or just a sucker. Of course, as you've mentioned, that's exactly the temptation a forger could look to prey upon. Specifically about the Civitas piece... he knows what he's doing, so I would guess in hand it looks more period than modern fabrication.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
Mat, on your Mexico 4R... that may possibly just be a piece that snapped off along a planchet crack.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
Somewhat more concrete supposition along with another of the cob version, courtesy of the most recent Sedwick auction a few months back: Of course, this thread started back in January... so maybe that last bit derives in part from here? http://www.icollector.com/Potosi-Bo...rd_i24550744Quote:
Potosi, Bolivia, cob 8 reales, 1764V-Y, cut down to possible North African (Barbary) standard. 16.06 grams. Somewhat pentagonal due to precise clipping to reduce the piece to about 16 grams (like many we have seen), with cross and pillars bold and full, nicely toned Fine+. In circulation along the Barbary coast of North Africa there was a 15- to 16-gram silver coin known as a "30 para," minted in Tripoli in 1773, that could have been linked to these cut-down cobs. Bust 8R cut down to this weight are also known.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5328 Posts |
It does sound like the last reference could have been based on earlier speculative comments.
There are a number of other similar instances of speculation being carried over repeatedly until the speculation becomes accepted as a "proven" fact. I think one of the most famous is the 1840 AD counterfeit that became a pattern with absolutely no proof - just repeated speculation.
Sometimes it helps to go back to the beginning and study the coin from scratch. If there is no tell-tale feature that proves a coin is a definite sub-variety (like a counter-stamp), or an unmistakable shape or method of cutting involved - it seems to be an open invitation to fraud. If in addition, there is no support in period literature, I find it hard to believe there is enough here to accept this as a distinct type.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
Small grouping of this type (the cob version) including (2) half-sized versions cut from FOUR reales pieces... see first pic. Second photo - another cut portrait that surfaced some months back (from the source and a quick glance I don't believe it to be from the grouping that started this thread):   Edited by realeswatcher
08/07/2017 5:35 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
Heritage has been listing cut cobs and portraits of this 15-16g type for the past 4-6 weeks or so in their weekly world auctions... referring to them as "cut to North African (Barbary) standard". That's probably copied from previous references... they don't use their all-star cataloguers for the weeklies... https://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/mex...ption-071515 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1832 Posts |
As I mentioned a couple months back, Heritage was trickling out a grouping of the cut portraits of this type, plus a few cobs. One more cob appeared in the HA weekly tonight. It's amazing to me what these are bringing now! You used to be able to get your fill of them from France (from where they almost always originated, which was good circumstantial evidence for their African origins) for peanuts. I have a certain disdain for clipped down coins... and as these don't really have any sexy or well-attributed origin, that's all they were to me. Bought a few of the cob types (plus some of a group of portraits)... but ignored any number of cut 8R/4R cobs of this type at the EUR 40-50 level: https://coins.ha.com/itm/bolivia/bo...ption-071515 |
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Moderator
 Australia
15412 Posts |
I must have missed this thread back when it was first posted.
The way the portraits on these coins have been carefully cut around, on each of them, clearly implies to me that keeping the portrait intact was important to whoever did it. I'm not sure if some strange religious or ceremonial purpose is involved, or they were simply being "Artistic". But I'd wager these were not cut for monetary purpose; hacking away at the edges of a coin in this fashion is a very inefficient way to make "small change". Cutting a coin clean in half (or quarters or other bits) gives you two half-coins, and you can use both of them in "change". Hacking like this... gives you one "coin", and a bunch of silver shards not useful for anything beyond tossing in the melting pot.
My best guess: artistic - somebody making "pirate jewellery".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Posted 03/23/2016 2:21 pm
