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2016 Natick And Gilbert Experimental Note Census Wanted

 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2299 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2016  05:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a copy of one of the handwritten pages kept by Gilbert Paper employees showing serial numbers and amounts of 1963A G-G block notes being distributed to existing and potential customers through its sales force. The owner of several hundred of these notes is trying to establish Fair Market Value before he sells them. I've advised him that the collector community has not officially recognized these as Gilbert notes, even though there is a lot of circumstantial evidence. The fact that he has so many of them works against him. Part of the Gilbert value lies in the rarity of finding them, along with the pamphlets. Is anyone here able to establish FMV on these notes ?



Pillar of the Community
United States
814 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2016  08:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GoldenChest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have been unable to find even a single auction or any sale of these GG blocks.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1786 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2016  08:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Broken-Coin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Awhile back I contacted the BEP and requested documentation that Gilbert Paper was used when Serialing series 1963A G-G Block $1.00 FRN's..

The BEP could not confirm this.. Maybe if the current owner provides Documentation to the heads of PCGS & PMG, maybe they will holder the Notes as Gilbert Paper (I wouldn't hold my breath with PMG)..
Pillar of the Community
United States
1786 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2016  09:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Broken-Coin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ SteveInTampa,

I'm just playing around with the Gilbert serial number G25631121G (series 1963A) and confirmed by plate position B1, this note was from Run #41 - sheet #11121 of 20000..

I would think the BEP would print a full RUN (#41) on Gilbert Stock as Gilbert delivered over 1.1 million sheets under contract, and only printed 20,000 sheets on RUN #96 series 1963 C60800001A - C61440000A..

Simple math says a 20,000 sheet Run #41 series 1963A serials are;
G25600001G to G26240000G (640,000 notes).

I think we can be in agreement that a full run was printed on Gilbert Paper..
Pillar of the Community
United States
2299 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2016  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the information Vernon.

I also was able to gain information from our government through the Freedom of Information Act.
The Bureau keeps records concerning plates used for printing, including dates, but does not keep any official records on paper or ink. I was able to obtain all 52 pages of the contract between the BEP and the Gilbert Paper Company, including correspondence between the two principles, fold and wear tests, and dates for delivery.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2299 Posts
 Posted 04/30/2016  1:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My Gilbert note just got back from PMG in their new clear holder. I was hoping for a 65EPQ and ended up with a 66EPQ.
I believe this is the only known graded Gilbert. Someone correct me if I am wrong.



Pillar of the Community
United States
814 Posts
 Posted 05/01/2016  07:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GoldenChest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a pic of an AU58 and somewhere I have a photo of a 55 and of one that was restored by PCGS from chemical damage. Yours is definetly the highest graded Gilbert I've seen. I'm curious, was your note attached to the pamphlet in anyway? I've heard horror stories of glue holding them in place.




Pillar of the Community
United States
2299 Posts
 Posted 05/01/2016  08:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No glue. Just placed under the pamphlet flap between page 2 and 3.



Pillar of the Community
United States
814 Posts
 Posted 05/01/2016  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GoldenChest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's good to know thanks
Pillar of the Community
United States
2299 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2016  4:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was contacted recently by a sweet lady that visited the Gilbert Paper Company back in the 70's and was given this by the office staff. She saved the note, leaflet and even the Gilbert envelope. Now it's part of my Gilbert collection.



I have also been working on an additional article for Paper Money Magazine.



Gilbert Paper Company and the 1963A G-G Notes



In my mind, I truly believe that the 1963A G-G notes the Gilbert Paper Company gave out at the time to current and potential customers as a sales aid were printed on Gilbert Paper Company security paper and printed by the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.

Through the Freedom of Information Act, I was able to obtain a copy of the actual contract between the BEP and the Gilbert Paper Company, along with all the correspondence between them.

Contract TEP-5374 for Distinctive Paper (Gilbert Paper Co.) Under Schedule No.12

Term: 12-month period beginning June 30, 1964

Most of the correspondence between the BEP and the Gilbert Paper Company involved Mr.Mike Donovan, Procurement Officer at the BEP, Washington DC and George Griffin, Vice President of Gilbert Paper Company, Menasha Wisconsin.

In a letter between the two, dated May 7 1965, George writes; Regarding our telephone conversation of today, the Gilbert Paper Company would like to be relieved of running the fourth portion of the subject contract TEP-5374.

The contract was amended from 150,000 pounds to 85,501 pounds, and from $111,750 to $63,698 on May 10 1965, and officially terminated on June 11 1965.

The Gilbert Paper Company kept meticulous, handwritten records which included actual serial numbers and which sales person or company official were given the notes. The notes were given with pride to company employees, local bank officials, Mead Corporate officers along with pamphlets and leaflets explaining that the United States one dollar bill was printed on Gilbert Security paper. I will never believe that the Gilbert Paper Company was giving out random one dollar bills without knowing for sure that they were printed on Gilbert Security paper. Somehow the Gilbert Paper Company knew exactly which series and district and serial numbers were printed on their paper.

The BEP keeps, and has kept detailed records of the engraved plates used for printing U.S. currency, but does not keep a record for the paper or ink. The ink they formulate "in house", and the paper supplier hasn't changed in over 145 years.so why should they. I am currently unable to prove, and furnish a serial number range without doubt, that the 1963A $1 G-G notes handed out by the Gilbert Paper Company were printed on Gilbert security paper. This event happened over 50 years ago, and most of the people that would know for SURE have passed away, but I believe the circumstantial evidence of the handwritten records, the notes found locked up in the company safe, and the notes handed out with the leaflets and pamphlets proclaiming their origin proves that they were printed on Gilbert security paper.



Edited by SteveInTampa
07/11/2016 7:51 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
4662 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2016  9:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Steve,

Your Gilbert note (C60804062A) originally came out of a coin shop in Texas probably 10 years ago or so. I think I originally gave only a couple of bucks for it and it sat in my office for several years in a box of "stuff" until a friend of mine (now deceased) saw it and talked me into selling it. He knew how rare it was, I didn't!

Glad to see you got it graded and I hope you continue to enjoy it for many years to come! It is a great note with a great history behind it!

I have never seen another one, so that makes it rare in my book! Keep up the excellent research on this unique saga of BEP history.

Thanks!



Pillar of the Community
United States
2299 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2016  05:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I saved all of the PM's between myself and a member TexasNationals (Jeff) from a different forum. He said he was brokering the note and pamphlet for a friend named Donnie, (nicknamed Bubba). A few members offered more than me, but I convinced him by the assurance that it was going into my collection, and not going to be flipped or resold for profit. The PM's are time stamped Oct.-Nov. 2011.
Valued Member
United States
61 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2016  08:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add notehunter494 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, What a Thread! Reads like a cross between a missing persons case and a treasure hunt.

Steve serious detective work. Were you ever a G-man?
Pillar of the Community
United States
4662 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2016  11:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Steve,

Jeff and his wife always called me "bubba" for some unknown reason. (Yeah, I drive a pickup and drink Dr Pepper but do not consider myself a goober or redneck....lol!)

Unfortunately, Jeff (TexasNationals on another forum) passed away on Thanksgiving morning of last year. It was a shock to all of us that knew him considering he was only in his 30's.

Whenever I think about Jeff, the saga of that Gilbert note always comes to mind and brings a smile to my face.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1786 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2016  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Broken-Coin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This thread is Proof that personal education is required when seeking specific Notes of interest, and know when to jump at the moment they become available..

I did notice that a Gilbert Note in Pamphlet sold for around $1,400 on eBay, and just happy no Gilbert overprint on back errors have surfaced to date..

It had taken me 14 years to locate one example each of the only two overprint on back Web Errors printed in the 4 1/2 year Test Run, and both listings never mentioned the fact that they were Web Notes..

Unlike all the Natick overprint errors confirmed from the 19 Half Sheet Span, only one 16 subject sheet from the A-F & G-P Block (1988A) received the overprint on back error, with a Census of only 5 Notes each being Confirmed..
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