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Back From PCGS Restoration Service

 
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1436 Posts
 Posted 11/21/2016  11:53 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Well this is back from PCGS Restoration, there is an old post of what it looked like before. I knew it had a bunch of luster hiding under the toning....But WOW!









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 Posted 11/22/2016  02:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joeysanders627 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks nice. How long did the entire process take from the time you sent the coin in to the time you got it back?
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 Posted 11/22/2016  04:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is probably just Me But I actually prefer the "Before" images myself .
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 Posted 11/22/2016  05:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Biedercoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I wonder what, exactly, they do to the coin during restoration. Anybody know?
- About two score and seven+ years ago, I began a Lincoln cent collection. I have all, most in AU or better & am upgrading to MS as possible.
- I collect all coins minted 1809, 1859, 1909, 1959, and 2009. Lincoln and C.Darwin were both born in 1809. The latter published his "On the Origin of Species.." in 1859, the Lincoln cent debuted in 1909, and after that it just seemed like a good way to show the evolution of US coinage. Most non-nums to whom I've shown these react with the phrase, "I had no idea!" That alone shows their worth.
- I've completed MS sets of Jeffersons & MS specimens of other 5 nickels; Franklins done. Roosies mostly done. I enjoy hunting for WLH and "winged liberty" dimes.
-- If I left my early Washington quarter book at one of y'alls house, please ring me up.
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28417 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2016  06:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think they should put on the label that it has been restored. How many TPG coins are out there that have been altered that a buyer was unaware of ?
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
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 Posted 11/22/2016  07:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I wonder what, exactly, they do to the coin during restoration. Anybody know?


In the case of this particular coin a simple "Dip" would have done the trick.


Quote:
I think they should put on the label that it has been restored. How many TPG coins are out there that have been altered that a buyer was unaware of ?
John1

This has been going on now for a few years, Far too late to try and squeeze that back into the Box.

When this "Restoration" by TPG's was first introduced I raised my concerns about the validity of a TPG Cleaning a coin without ANY notation on the label, It wouldn't work anyway because the coin could always be cracked out after.
Restoration - Cleaning are the same thing , Apparently if it is done under the banner of a TPG then it is legit all of a sudden.
Dealers/collectors have been Dipping and otherwise doctoring coins for decades and TPG's actively look for signs of this and refuse to grade these particular coins.
I do feel it is highly hypocritical of the TPG's to now perform basically the same procedure and give a coin a "Kosher" grade.

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 Posted 11/22/2016  07:24 am  Show Profile   Check Andrew99's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coins with mint luster that are dipped will not be details graded regardless of who did it. If the surface do not look dull due to the dipping, it will grade just fine. Now if you dip an XF coin, it will look odd and bright and will come back cleaned.
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 Posted 11/22/2016  07:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Coins with mint luster that are dipped will not be details graded regardless of who did it. If the surface do not look dull due to the dipping, it will grade just fine. Now if you dip an XF coin, it will look odd and bright and will come back cleaned.


That all depends on how many times the coin has been dipped previously.
Lustre is not something that miraculously grows back and eventually the acid in the dip will eat through this delicate layer on the coin and ruin it.
It only take one straw to break a camels back
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 Posted 11/22/2016  07:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In the case of this particular coin a simple "Dip" would have done the trick.

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 Posted 11/22/2016  10:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On this particular die variety, without the luster showing most will grade 3 to 8 points lower due to the damaged die. The 1889 O VAM 1a2 has a wide radial die break on the obverse and reverse die that would spread apart during the strike.
The strike makes all of this die variety look low AU right out of the mint. Every one I have ever seen has no hair detail over the ear, and they all have a flat cheek as well as having the fields and the reliefs inside the fields look AU'ish. The reverse has no breast feathers and remarkable flatness that one see's in low AU coins.

This particular coin has UNC reading on the side of the coin that are razor sharp, kind of like the coin was in a roll for 140 years. But the coin showed no real luster. With the strike being what it is and coin not showing any UNC features other than the rim edges, one could understand why the coin was originally graded AU-50.

One of the biggest differences between AU-55 and AU-58 is luster. As far as what PCGS does to the coin, I think they use ammonia on silver coins as well as MS-70. They also will refuse to conserve a coin if the coin is deeply toned or shows the possibility of a problem under the color or dirt. They charge a 25.00 fee if they chose not to conserve a coin.

Having the coin in hand before and after, this coin looks much better. The photos of it before do not show how dead the coin looked.

What's real interesting on this coin is the very strong possibility that the lower section of the "L" from liberty can be seen on the coin. This coin is going to Leroy Van Allen with an overlay for that revision as well as to have the reverse redial die break noted. While every V-1a2 has this feature its not noted, and if he confirms the "L" clash it will be the only Morgan dollar to have a "L" clash.

While every V-1a2 will have been struck with this letter transfer, and the die is the die. This variety is very grade sensitive and finding one in grades high enough to see it will prove to be very difficult.
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 Posted 11/22/2016  10:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pat Sajak srikes again! Very nice Russ. I agree, much better
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 Posted 11/22/2016  11:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Usually I would prefer "natural" coins over those that have been altered. But in this instance the "finished product" does look more appealing.

I do agree that the TPG's should note when a coin has been conserved, but it's way too late now.
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 Posted 11/22/2016  12:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twohawks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would prefer a natural coin over a dipped coin. But with that said I would almost guarantee that over 60% of all coins in a TPG slab have been dipped over the years. I personally know that 6 major national dealers have been dipping the vast majority of the coins they have sent in for grade decades.

That genie has been out of the bottle, well before the onset of TPG companies. I do not even have type of silver dip in my home, but ammonia is not a dip it only pulls off biologics. This coin still has light rim toning round the denticles and stars. As far as dip is concerned, even a single area where the dip may sit for even a second to long will give a coin a broken luster look, and that in of its self will drop an UNC coin to an AU.

My 1891 O VAM-3a2 in MS-63 I had sent in. PCGS refused to conserve it. The toning on the reverse hides the "E" clash, but due to the deep toning they will not touch it. I asked if they could or would remove just a spot under the tail or just the reverse and they refused. My understanding is that would make the coin a 1 sided toner and that is considered an a NO NO!
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 Posted 11/23/2016  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add twodsonegf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, it sure does look much nicer Russ. Great coin ;)
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 Posted 11/23/2016  3:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I do feel it is highly hypocritical of the TPG's to now perform basically the same procedure and give a coin a "Kosher" grade.

From the very beginning TPGs were primarily just a money making scheme. As most of the rest of the world said, "Why do I need to pay someone else to tell me what my coin grades?" Back then Americans, having the most disposable income at the time, were the ones who went for the scheme.

The TPGs were bold enough at one point to proclaim themselves THE experts and THE ones qualified to grade everyone's coins, and so when they announced they would now clean coins, but only grade the coin if THEY cleaned them, it was not shock at all to me. It's just another way to take advantage of the hobby.

Of course they had to come up with a palatable term like "conservation" so as not to raise eyebrows.

Having said all of that, your coin really looks great. And I would not have a problem having it in my own collection b/c trying to tell it from its original leaving-the-mint condition may be impossible.

And I think if any coin can be cleaned in this manner, then the TPGs need to either refuse to grade their own work also, or else get off their high horse and grade them all on an equal par.

But again... its mainly about the money for them.

I also suspect that soon they will bring out total computer scanned grading. The tech has been out there, legitimately, since the 90s being used in QC department of industry. I think the TPGs are just holding out until they feel the people are running out of potential coins to be slabbed so business slows. They will then announce their "new" CGS (computer grading system - using 90s tech!) so they can tell the masses its impossible to sleep at night now knowing if their slabbed coins were victims of human error in the grading process. At only 50.00 per coin (and any priceless heirloom) they will be more than happy to help you rest assured you have the ACTUAL grade

...until 30 years later when they change the algorithm the computer used to grade this time around.
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
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 Posted 11/24/2016  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It really turned out nice Russ. Your comment about the L being visible is interesting. Based on the position of the edge of the LIBERTY band a portion of the L could be transferred and visible. Looking forward to what LVA has to say.
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