Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest! Check out our Google+!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit/Error - Coin of the Year?  
 

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
United States
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2017  12:26 pm Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit (CCC) Coin of the Year? Unearthed in the U.K. recently. Lets see how good you guys really are - here are the specifics:

1. Its the Portrait of Ferdinand VI (1756-1762?). KM#32.1 type or similar.
2. Plain Edge and Medal Die Turn.
3. Incredibly 30% off-center.
4. A regal weighs 27.06 grams. This coin weighs 23.1 grams.
5. Mint-mark is N.R and therefore Columbia issue for this mid-18th Century piece.
6. Gold mercuric amalgamation over a current UNKNOWN base alloy.
7. Sharpness: AU-UNC - no wear detected under 30X stereo
microscope examination.
8. Size: 38.54 mm (Vertically) X 39.6 mm (horizontally).
Question - for this region and its weight to regal what is its base alloy. Brass, Bronze, Brass/Bronze, Platinum, Silver/Gold, other ...

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States

XRF on base alloy should be done by this Friday April 21.




Edited by colonialjohn
04/15/2017 12:31 pm
Valued Member
United States
433 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2017  12:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can see why a density test may not answer the question at hand- but why not test anyway?
At least you will have a number that points to copper, brass, bronze one way or another.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/15/2017  12:39 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Never came upon a piece this early (even viewing) of this type (i.e., Gold Mercuric 8 Escudo CCC). Not in Ringo Shaumburg (Stacks/June-2009) as they start with CAROLUS III types for 8E's although the alloys there are not fully accurate. As is lot 56 which is actually gold debased with silver (Au=79%, Ag=19%) after post XRF testing. Being South American it may be too early for any platinum. We know copper as with silver/gold/mercuric plating may be the logical substrate or base alloy here. Its already known to be a gold plating - just confirming mercuric and again the base alloy. I have XRF access ... Ringo and myself talked about this group in 2009 as I was at the coin show when he discussed with me the purchase of these gold/platinum/base Spanish American pieces from a high end European dealer/collector. Its weight suggest the base alloy may have silver. Looking to CCF of other possible examples of FERDIN VI? Unlikely IMO.



JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
04/15/2017 9:50 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1040 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2017  10:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John, see pic below. Not sure where I had seen it - was about 4 years back per my file date - probably eBay, maybe this forum or a metal detecting site or ? I don't remember exactly and I can't find it via search.

My only note for it: "17g found in England" (I know it was stated to be a salvage find)

Indeed seems to be a die match to this piece... and of course both out of the UK and same off-centered strike. They are surely two of a kind.

At the time, given the very low weight (no huge loss of mass from seawear) and rather faithful design recreation for such an early date... I remember my thought then was that it was probably some sort of modern replica, plausibly UK-made. This would be something akin to UK-made later 20th century tourist-type 1776 Mex. 8R and "Spanish Armada" Lima mint ca.1580 cob 8R repros that surface every so often. It would also be akin to, say, the ubiquitous U.S.-made 1736 Lima 8 Escudos, 1620s Mex. cob 8R, 1760 pillar 8R, etc., tourist-type repros which regularly get thrown onto Florida "Treasure Coast" beaches or elsewhere... presumably to screw w/the detectorist types who eventually dig them up and get all excited for nothing.

It's interesting that this piece is a good bit heavier (though still nothing near actual 8E weight, of course). With the low weights on both specimens, plus the horrid strike, there's no way either was a finished product contemporary counterfeit. Now, they COULD be test strikes for a CC die that were discarded by chucking them in the river, burial, whatever...

I would warn, though, that modern is not off the table. Again, the detail is quite accurate for that period - possibly too much so (design elements, lettering, etc. on 1700's Lima pillar cob 8E and even ca. 1800 Colonial portrait 8E CCs I've seen are usually "off" to the same level seen on CC reales... you would think they would try harder getting it right for the gold but ?). Also note that it doesn't take long in the right kind of elements for copper, bronze, etc. to end up looking that bad...


Edited by realeswatcher
04/19/2017 10:10 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2017  8:44 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Realeswatcher running lab tests tomorrow. If there is trace platinum in the gold mercuric wash or a platinum/silver alloy in the base alloy - I may have to debate but these specimens sure look identical but the coloring of this other example is horrid although yes a die match!. The other thing its plain edge and all the Ringo pieces were diagonally reeded edged (see Schaumburg)although in Wnuck:6975 (Stacks November,2012) we see only test filings by the date/head only. This was purchased from Andy Lustig the noted World Dealer who now specilizes also in World Errors. So these two pieces its more crude or not as well made - but again no Ferdin VI 8 Escudo CCC has been traced other than this example and yours ... but if from Columbia the presence of platinum is almost like a signature metal. I suspect if most of these Ringo pieces with South American mints which were auctioned and listed as JUST gold are probably diluted with platinum and/or silver as is most Colombian artifacts (See Percy). Again this was verified in lot 56 as a friend of mine performed XRF after he received the coin back in 2009 after winning this lot who wishes to remain anonymous revealed to me its dilution (intentional) with silver. I mention this in my new book about these alloys in South American gold CCCs and their artifacts as repoted by Percy in his book on Columbian antiquities. Will report VERY soon on both the gold wash and base alloy assays. Obviously if I see aluminum or chromium I will be depressed RW ... LOL. Great find! Thanks! JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
04/19/2017 9:00 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1040 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2017  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Many times, of course, CC escudos WERE in fact just gilt platinum...

https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...s_range=past

Note how crude these all are... no imitations with EXACTLY correct detail - always "off" (and all of those are later dates than 1760). The same goes (though not many in this archive search string) for cob CC onzas.

A piece like this "1776" Popayan mint imitation:
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/l...view/1-1NXNY

well executed... a crisp, attractive design... but not really correct.

And again, with the weights being so low... I can only see these being test strikes. Falsa de epoca 8E are almost always right around exact weight... they had to at LEAST get that right.

One way or the other... (2) out of (2) pieces found in the muck in the UK points to a British origin - whatever the period.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2017  12:22 am  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RW - Remember we also see Gilt Copper and Brass. Just like the Isabel II issues. When 50% of regal the Isabela II's don't have any real value of course to anyone collecting these types as everyone wants Au, Pt & Ag ... I do own some other gold levels as I have a 2 Escudo shortly coming up on eBay similar to Ringo: 38 a gilt copper type on a lower denomination escudo but gold 20-30% - no doubt here like Ringo 37 & 38 period pieces. But you are right Au/Pt's are normally 90% of regal or better. From above = 8E's can be gilt copper or brass once gilted - the least desirable of all alloys like Schaumburg/Ringo: 54 and 55 at 16.1 and 10.7 grams respectively both Popayan Mint/JF Assayers of Carolus III & Ferdinand VII. With this high weight (85% of regal) I am expecting some platinum and silver and NO LEAD - LOL. Maybe test pieces for a CC operation since Plain edge? Maybe 19thC? Will report tomorrow tonight or Friday the assay findings of the plate and host coin.

JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
04/20/2017 12:28 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2017  9:47 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RW - the SEM/EDS analysis indicated no gold or platinum. We see a brass layer (yellow color area) over a very high copper alloy (dark non-yellow area). So a brass yellow film over a high copper host. Cu=~95-98%. Very high. This is different than Schaumburg:46 (Stacks, June 2009) which appears as an overall brass alloy with a weight 55% of regal at 14.79 grams.. Its plain edge and the weight is achieved at 85% of regal since its a thick planchet. Since now two exists in the world and both are U.K. detector finds and there is no Pt or Au these may have been produced later and/or are test pieces for a counterfeiter? These could also be later intentional ground pieces. The planchets look well made and almost have a mid-late 19thC look. Strange piece. Nothing unusual in the trace surface elements which is probably all from the soil (Si,S,CL and potassium). The silicon and potassium coming from the soil and the typical chlorine and sulfur the primary two air pollutants we see on all coins causing toning.
Probably sell it calling a later 19thC production CCC of brass alloy over a high copper host. Not in Schaumburg. If from the Columbia Mint I would expect some Au or Pt.

John Lorenzo
United States
Pillar of the Community
United States
1040 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2017  11:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I doubt it has anything to do with Colombia itself, aside from mimicking a Colombian mint piece. Colombian gold (which was rather plentiful overall - they produced much more gold than silver in Colonial times) circulated all over... Again, I strongly suspect British origin for these two.

Note in that 2009 Ringo sale... all the die-struck ca.1800 and back pieces have cruder, inexact hand-replicated detail... the only ones which are exact in replicating detail are the simple casts. These two pieces, it would seem, are die-struck... and the design elements, lettering, etc. are, to my eyes, quite faithful to an original. I don't think we're looking at a date of production anywhere close to the "coin's" 1760 date.

Perhaps an example of the numismatic replicas which were popular ca. 1900? One wouldn't expect, however, such pieces to end up out of the coin cabinet and into the ground or the drink. So, either perhaps a mid-1800s severely (?!) backdated meant-to-circ. counterfeit - or more probably a test strike thereof (but wouldn't they pick something more recent?)... or a more recent replica.

I don;t know exactly... they are curious pieces!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2017  04:34 am  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RW: Yes - later pieces by their fabric outside of the 18thC - probably mid-19thC or later. If you held in hand they are almost like a medal (i.e., thicker to bring up the regal weight to 27 grams). These are strange and why these types. We do not see these later pieces more modern in their production for Carolus III,IV and Ferdinand VII that I can recall of this type. Keep hunting ... the O/C is strange also as a maker of CCC you never want to draw attention to oneself. The amount of sulfur and chlorine detected, wear and other factors seem about ~100-150 years old I would gather ... mid-19thC is my guess now that there is no Au or Pt. Strange also you would purposely bury a pure copper planchet ... a brass alloy planchet would suffice your trickery much better rather than a brass plate over a high copper alloy with GREAT die making skills capability as we see here ... see my Ringo-like Escudo of gold on eBay launching late on 4/30: johnmenc. JPL
Pillar of the Community
United States
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/22/2017  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RW - Both pieces as you suggest from the U.K. but now pinpointed!

John - I found the entries for both finds at the Portable Antiquities Scheme site.

Something I found interesting is that both are noted to have been found at the same place - in the water at Surrey Docks, London.

Your coin was a "chance find" "eyes only" while the other was with a metal detector.

Cut and paste in your browser - RW.

https://finds.org.uk/database/artef...rd/id/569209

https://finds.org.uk/database/artef...rd/id/555548

Julia
Pillar of the Community
United States
1040 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2017  3:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
HA! How about that... good digging.

Pillar of the Community
United States
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2017  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Julia Purdy ... a very good resercher. She has a good skill set using the Internet.

JPL
Pillar of the Community
United States
1040 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2017  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The UK Finds database would of course be essential to you halfpenny people to help determine which side of the pond...

Pillar of the Community
United States
1322 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2017  6:33 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RW - See this write-up:

https://finds.org.uk/database/artef...rd/id/485347

Most of the analysis are done probably by college students from Oxford who probably major in archaeology? with about 1-2 years experience in coin attributions. Could be wrong? LOL.

Been to BM twice in the last 10 years. Both times looking at pieces in their Coin Room which has led me to the above conclusion.

I do have a Elizabeth I CCC launching tonight on eBay but not until May 13 on one of these Charles I silver plated CCCs. Apples/Oranges to the BM write-up here on this link. They do have Gurney. Could be an antiquated write-up which may? explain the archaic description.

My point - the pictures are small and interesting but the analysis of the coins are a JOKE.



JPL
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Ending Soon   Newly Listed   Lowest Price   Highest Price   Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2017 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2017 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.87 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05