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1589 Lion Thaler coin  
 

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Pillar of the Community
Austria
1950 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  09:07 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Its been a while sonce I picked anything up. This was my most recent aquisition( arrived this week) I am trying to find a example much closer to 1575.




the above image was severely compressed for posting. Original image can be seen here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B...UOEpqTy1DaHM

Don't buy the book before the coin as too often the book is wrong. "Buy" the story then the coin
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United States
15494 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  09:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice original example. I've been tempted by one of these at coin shows many times.

I congratulate you for your excellent selection.
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Canada
1915 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  12:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you attach 2 images, one obverse and one reverse, it would not need as much compression.
Pillar of the Community
Austria
1950 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  2:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you attach 2 images, one obverse and one reverse, it would not need as much compression. Each separate image uncompressed is around 32mb ( as a Jpeg) The original Tiff is 128mb ( each side)
Don't buy the book before the coin as too often the book is wrong. "Buy" the story then the coin
Pillar of the Community
United States
1484 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mysilveryears to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is my 1576. The last two digits of the date are sort of hard to read.



Pillar of the Community
United States
1306 Posts
 Posted 10/10/2017  11:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
much closer to 1575


1576 is actually a rather plentiful date... and I believe that was the first date that appears on the coin.
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United States
748 Posts
 Posted 10/12/2017  12:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
austrokiwi, why the focus on the date? For me, I am most concerned with a full strike (or as full as possible for these hand hammered coins). Here's mine:

Pillar of the Community
Austria
1950 Posts
 Posted 10/13/2017  10:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coins in my collection tell a story. I want the earliest possible date ( I believe with out checking 1575 was the first date this coin was struck) of striking of one of the international significant Dutch Lion Thaler ( I have read enough tantalizing but fragmentary evidence) to believe the first Thaler to be called "Lion Thaler" was the Joachimsthal strike
Don't buy the book before the coin as too often the book is wrong. "Buy" the story then the coin
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1188 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2017  09:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To the best of my knowledge, the first mint year of this type is 1575.

Two more 1576 pieces posted.




Pillar of the Community
United States
1306 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2017  06:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RE: the 1575 date:

Made me check this out... I had never seen (didn't know about) the "early" style apparently used for 1575 and part of 1576. Having a hard time even finding a pic of a clear 1575-dated one (though I see several of that style dated 76):

http://goccf.com/t/134885#1200713
http://www.coinfactswiki.com/wiki/H...der_Dav-8837

This one on eBay now claims to be 1575, idea being that what's visible of the last digit has to be 5 not 6. I guess I agree...:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1575-Nether...202076514514
Edited by realeswatcher
10/17/2017 6:12 pm
Valued Member
United States
460 Posts
 Posted 10/18/2017  8:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add plonker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
very nice coins all. Here is my 1616 Lion daalder. It is graded VF-35 but I think it is lot sharper than most of the higher grade daalders I have seen.


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United States
7532 Posts
 Posted 10/18/2017  8:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
very nice coins all.


I agree! These are really great large silver coins.
"It certainly strikes the beholder with astonishment, to perceive what vast difficulties can be overcome by the pigmy arms of little mortal man, aided by science and directed by superior skill." --Henry Tudor (the lawyer not the king)
Valued Member
Belgium
340 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2018  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1576 is actually a rather plentiful date... and I believe that was the first date that appears on the coin.



I agree in part with this statement:
indeed 1576 - Hollands is a rather plentiful date and one of the explanations is that the city of Dordrecht (then the capital of Holland) minted this coin for more than a decade with the same date; the next date one can find from the province of Holland is 1589, that was the opener of this thread I believe

but this is not the first date, but a type 2 Lion Dollar (see Delmonte "The Silver Benelux # 831)

in fact, two types were minted before the type 2 Lion Dollars, in a brief period between november 1575 and mid 1576

type 1A minted during the last months of 1575 (Delmonte 829): the first had no date (this was perhaps a die mistake, directly corrected => only two or three coins are known to exist; but also the variety with date is very rare, Delmonte says R2

type 1B was produced during the first months of 1576, more common than type 1A but rare compared to type 2; Delmonte R

In both type 1A and type 1B, the knight on the OBV side is oriented to the left, while in type 2 (1576 and later) the knight oriented to the right
most of the early leeuwendaalders were made with weak strikes and imperfect planchets

After 1589, the other states (provinces) of the Republic joined in, so you can find Lion Dollars of Utrecht, Gelderland, Zeeland, Westfriesland and Friesland; in addition the Overijssel tree-cities (Kampen, Deventer, Zwolle) also made their Lion Dollars mostly in the first decades of the 17th century

the pictures below are from one of the best preserved type 1B coins (unusual in this quality) that was auctioned in the Netherlands about 5yrs ago




Valued Member
Belgium
340 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2018  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
austrokiwi, why the focus on the date? For me, I am most concerned with a full strike (or as full as possible for these hand hammered coins). Here's mine:


@jgenn: your type 2 1576 piece is very nice; you cannot expect much better from a hand strike coin. what is important are details on the face of the knight and on the lion manes (also on the small one in the shield of Holland (OBV). A possible explanation for this good preservation state could be that this coin was mounted in a pendant at an early date (I think I see traces of near the egde of mounting in a pendant). Perhaps one of the Dutch colonists in the US took it a memory of Holland

dates, however, are very important for this coin, as in the early years the lion dollars were a political statement of a new nation (Holland) that revolted against an empire (Spain), in later years this was a true international trade dollar

Valued Member
Belgium
340 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2018  4:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
sorry I join this interesting thread so late, I am a newcomer


Quote:
This one on eBay now claims to be 1575, idea being that what's visible of the last digit has to be 5 not 6. I guess I agree...:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1575-Nether...202076514514


@realeswatcher
the coin for sale on eBay is NOT a type 1a from 1575 but a type 1b, minted in the first months of 1576 (see my two posts above)
the condition of this particular coin is poor so the date cannot be read anymore; in fact the seller of this coin should modify the information, as it is incorrect,

below are pictures of a type 1a from 1575, auctioned two years ago;
realeswatcher is right: it is difficult to find images from this prototype of the Dutch Lion Dollar on the internet



Valued Member
Belgium
340 Posts
 Posted 01/03/2018  5:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@realeswatcher

the two links in your post above:

http://goccf.com/t/134885#1200713
http://www.coinfactswiki.com/wiki/H...der_Dav-8837

also connect to type 1b (1576) coins

when the date is worn it is still easy to see the difference between type 1a and 1b : just compare the size and shape of the head of the knight in the pictures in my posts above this one

the Coinfactswiki information is quite correct
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