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An Unusual Spanish Colonial 8 Reales Cob Coin. Not A Counterfeit!

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Pillar of the Community
Austria
562 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2018  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinworldtv to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Project "unicorn" will be continued... :)
Pillar of the Community
Austria
562 Posts
 Posted 02/15/2018  4:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinworldtv to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
...actually you all guys can help me as everyone of you is looking at silver cobs each day. Just keep me in mind if you see anything similar.

I would be happy to inspect any unusual silver cob coin and maybe even buy it.

It is worth a try, just PM me or post the coin in this thread.

At least I will not call any of you silly.

I am also buying all sorts of things to re-sell and maybe to collect (if they are very unusual). After all this is what I am living of.
Edited by coinworldtv
02/15/2018 4:48 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2440 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2018  10:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Send it to a grading service and be done with it.

Or compare some of the Sedwick auctions and see if you can match it. There are thousands of genuine examples with good pictures here. Cobs are not typically slabbed.

http://www.sedwickcoins.com

Compare Lots 633 and 648 in the November 2017 auction to see something similar to your coin. Note how messed up the shields are on these, and compare adjacent coins to get an idea of what is normal.

If it's a contemporary counterfeit or a real cob I'd value it at $200-300 USD. There is no readable lettering on your coin that I can see. The shield is double struck and looks crooked. The weight is correct. The lack of a crown over the shield that realeswatcher notes is a problem for sure, but could it possibly be obliterated by the double strike? I own some with really mashed up shields. I am more concerned with the lack of any readable letters. No mint, no assayer, nothing. I like to be able to at least know the regent on shields, but there is not enough here to tell.

In general the better a cob looks the more it is worth. They are really just small ingots which were remelted in Europe. So every one of them looks unique and most are very badly struck.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
02/18/2018 11:35 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1527 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2018  09:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
COINWORLDTV maybe a positive story? At the New York International recently in January I had several Spanish/Mexican dealers gang up on me and say ... John Lorenzo ... we love contemporary circulating counterfeits as they were all grouped at one table at the show ... LOL. One of them was Sedwick but sometimes there can be a problem. They explained they do not have a John Kraljevich like Stacks/Bowers that can make sense of these early Cobs or any Spanish/American or Spanish CCC of any period. Lets face it when was the last time you FELT COMFORTABLE that the Cob you had in your hand was unquestionably a period piece (i.e., as a GNL Type 1 off-metal Portrait) and a CCC at the same time? I can say I have seen several but I could not guarantee it was not made several years later! This is unlike the Sheffields or off-metal like the GNL Type 1's in GURNEY. So as a rule Sedwick does not sell Cob CCCS in his auctions - NEVER - so I agree - he is caught between a rock and a hard place. He did sell me a NICE GNL type 1 Sheffield he picked up at the NYITL floor and was nice enough to sell it to me at a low number. Cobs are DOOMED as CCCS ... for many reasons ... is it period or melted silver of the period produced fifty years later? Their fabric and design elements are the KILLER. Great coin BTW but who can really LOVE IT and say its a period piece that co-circulated with the regals? In the future maybe with SEM/EDS microstructure analysis but what is the point NOW in going there ...
Pillar of the Community
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1636 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2018  1:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Cobs are DOOMED as CCCS ... for many reasons ... is it period or melted silver of the period produced fifty years later? Their fabric and design elements are the KILLER. Great coin BTW but who can really LOVE IT and say its a period piece that co-circulated with the regals?

John, that's a great oversimplification. In fact, for someone who knows the coins, the fabric and design elements are the traits that are the MOST useful in distinguishing modern concoctions from period pieces. The fact is, though, that you have to be (very good) at it... AND have to care enough.

I think part of the problem is that there's less sophistication involved in the market (and also it's also less "mature"... meaning how long the field has been well-studied) overall than something like counterfeit Brit. coppers... or maybe a better comparison - ancients. Certainly there are some very devoted, studied collectors/dealers... but then there are the "pirate pieces of eight doubloon" crowd.

To be fair, it CAN be difficult to tell contemporary from modern replica in some cases... and then you have the Spaniards, where even at the highest-level numismatic houses they tend to call ANYTHING crude and not genuine "de epoca" (whether due to sales pitch or simple lack of knowledge/interest). But it can be done beyond a reasonable doubt in many

PS - "50 years later" (even after the very end of cobs in 1773) would still be WELL within the circulating timeframe for this coinage. For instance, see the known Argentina ca. 1820 cob 8R casts. Almost a similar idea to Mex. WOI casts... except done well after those types had been made, since they were still very much used.
Pillar of the Community
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1636 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2018  1:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But hey, then again, professionals and grading cos. can't even tell regal cobs apart, so what hope do we have of correctly differentiating period fakes from modern concoctions...

Right, CWTV?:
Pillar of the Community
United States
1636 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2018  2:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Then this thread on the PCGS World board (link not allowed? LOL), a forum with some higher-end collectors of Spanish Colonial/reales coinage. ABSOLUTELY textbook example! And yet, no one cared - or, was no one able to tell? Reading made me want to scream... the type of coin that (as genuine) sells for $150-200 and everyone is clueless.

"Anybody Know approximate date and value of this 8 reales coin":

Edited by realeswatcher
02/19/2018 2:24 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2440 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2018  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Based on crudeness and corrosion I'll guess a 1771 Potosi worth $150.

Unsold lot #745 looks much better.

http://auction.sedwickcoins.com/auc...50#i23424828

It could be worth more if it's some kind of rarity within the date, but not to me.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
02/19/2018 5:05 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1527 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2018  6:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its true Realeswatcher. In March 2018 the so-called non-regal group from C4 is coming out with a new book on CCC British/Irish CCCS. This to me is probably NOT a new compilation but its probably alot of the ANS-CNL and Penny Wise C4 compiled articles of these CCC Families that they have been writing about for the last 20-30 years in these journals. Whatever. So when I jumped from C4 to MNA it was like Graduate School to the third grade in most cases with coin dealers in Spanish and Mexican CCCS in terms of their development and knowledge of CCCS or as they say FALSAS. Be that as it may ... but things are improving ... I guess since I know zero about Cobs this does not help. Also it seems they are never in off-metal like brass or bronze or diluted with a v.high percentage of copper but maybe? debased silver and maybe in german silver? for a genuine period CCC. I just CAN NOT CONNECT to what is period or not period when these odd balls COBS show up. I guess this is why Cobs and CCCS will be a GRAY area for decades to come ... not years ... decades. Once we get to Portraits its EASY ... so we were able to differentiate GNL Types 1-4 somewhat easily. JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
02/19/2018 6:16 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1636 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2018  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I guess since I know zero about Cobs this does not help

Absolutely... You HAVE to have a good handle on the regal (genuine) pieces to approach it, as they are not your typical coins, and there is SO much variety in terms of design and style of production across various mints and eras. Again, though... there IS interest among advanced students of cob coinage.

Regarding metal... some are low-grade silver... You do, however, definitely see plenty of silver-washed copper alloy types - seemingly more out of Europe and the eastern Mediterranean than the Americas.


Quote:
So when I jumped from C4 to MNA it was like Graduate School to the third grade in most cases with coin dealers in Spanish and Mexican CCCS in terms of their development and knowledge of CCCS or as they say FALSAS.

Yes, unfortunately that is true overall, though.

Of course, it's ironic that there's not that much (or maybe "enough" is the word) interest in cobs from the C4 types. What does everyone think the colonies used for silver coinage?!!



Quote:
Based on crudeness and corrosion I'll guess a 1771 Potosi worth $150.

Unsold lot #745 looks much better.

http://auction.sedwickcoins.com/auc...50#i23424828

It could be worth more if it's some kind of rarity within the date, but not to me.

Yuppers, several points proven right there!! Yes, now I actually did scream
Edited by realeswatcher
02/19/2018 6:43 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2440 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2018  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
sorry realeswatcher I'm not enough of a specialist. Which is another way of repeating that it's not worth over $150 TO ME.

If I find 1669 4R Potosis with two dates lying in a box for $70 each at Harlan Berk I buy them. Haven't found any in a while.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Pillar of the Community
United States
1527 Posts
 Posted 02/19/2018  8:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Realeswatcher - Some areas never take off - like French Colonials and Colonial Paper Money. C4 Coinage in many ways has a direct link to Great Britain and Ireland rather than Spain and Mexico for foreign. Half the working class money as you many know in the Colonies was counterfeit British and Irish Halfpence so it got it start there with Machins Mills initiated by Vlack and Newman. It took alot of POWER to delist even one or two of these ealy Machin Mills pieces outside of 1787/1788 core group die linked to State Colonial Coppers. Coinage from Mexico and Spain never really infiltrated collectors probably just due to this tradition and its written books. Great Britain and Ireland were always strongly linked to the U.S. Colonies so these trump over Spanish COlonies as well as French Colonials and Colonial Paper Money which never found a good nitche even to this day. Once we get to the 1600's people prefer Massachusetts Silver. Kleebergs are a enigma but they have been around awhile and appear to be struck in the U.S. in the early 19thC or 1771 (possibly) - 1850. But even these have faded a bit. Prices have FALLEN GREATLY since Ringo's Collection of 2008 and part of the problem is we EXPORTED all of these from U.K. over the last 20-30 years as U.K. has no C4 and Brits seem to favor silver, gold and ANCIENTS. Sales of Forgotten Coins in the U.K. is embarrassing but what is STRANGE its going gang busters in INDIA!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1636 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2021  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154726883740

"INSUFFICIENT DETAIL TO ID"........
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1117 Posts
 Posted 12/08/2021  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Aw he sold his unicorn
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