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Anyone Want to Discuss Douglas Robins Collection of Canadian Tokens?

 
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Valued Member
Canada
191 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  5:26 pm Show Profile   Check NumisCat's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add NumisCat to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Douglas Robins Collection of Canadian Tokens
http://click.ems.ha.com/?qs=cde5a67...989f41a3bbf0

Numismatic cataloger, writer, and researcher.

Please take a moment to check out my new website: http://www.jacoblipsonrarecoins.com
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United States
1438 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sure - the Canadian Blacksmiths. Just ask - they are using my new book Forgotten Coins to assist in the cataloging of the Canadian Blacksmiths.
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United States
86 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  7:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Numiscat - it is a superb collection with many finest known pieces. I expect very strong bidding.

@colonialjohn - I picked up a copy of your book and started reading this weekend. Very impressed in what I've read so far. I need to start comparing my Blacksmiths with the data provided.

Gene
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United States
795 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialtokens to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Doug Robins' passion for Canadian Colonial Tokens was par excellence. Mr. Robins had the love, passion, desire, drive, and determination to amass the greatest collection of Canadian Colonial Tokens ever assembled. To this objective, Doug Robins was most triumphant. Coupled with his encyclopedic knowledge of numismatics, fantastic memory, and astuteness for obtaining the best, Mr. Robins legacy in Canadian Numismatics will forever remain unsurpassed. The Bench-Mark has been set.

Concerning the Canadian Colonial Token field, I dare say that no one individual has ever amassed the number of 'best known' or the number of 'unique' or 'the only ensample in private hands.'

The eminent Doctor and researcher, James Haxby also merits highest accolades for researching, compiling, and writing this Auction Catalogue for Heritage. And especial thanks and appreciation is due Doug's wonderful wife, Rita, to allow and to support Doug in this grand lifetime achievement. Doug was not only legendary in his lifetime, but also my friend.

p.s. The data currently on the Heritage site is not yet in its' final form.


doug carlson



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Canada
7234 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NumisCat
Not a very helpful link, goes nowhere on my computer.
Takes me to Canadian Coins on my phone, and not easy to go from there to the tokens in the auction.

"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Canada
2947 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2018  9:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doug was not only a brilliant numismatist , but also a friend and colleague. He was most generous in helping me in the early years of my Numismatic career. Although I had not seen or heard from Doug for many years, we reconnected a couple of years ago and enjoyed more than a few lengthy late night phone conversations, until Doug's Death .
I will be honoured to have that Heritage Sale Catalogue in my library. Also kind of cool to see a few of the pieces I sold Doug.
Willing to bet there will be very Strong bidding on more than a few of those wonderful tokens.

Jack Noble. Paccoin
Valued Member
Canada
191 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  01:13 am  Show Profile   Check NumisCat's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Although I never knew Mr. Robins personally, I did have the pleasure of examining many of these wonderful tokens in hand. I can say that the quality is nothing short of spectacular. As good as the HA photo team is, I would highly recommend making the trip to Chicago for in-person lot viewing. The surfaces, strike, and colour are unbelievable. Like Pac says, this catalogue will be an important reference in any numismatic library. I would expect all the major players to step up big time.

Anyone think this will boost the market by generating interest, or will it put pressure on a niche area of collecting?
Numismatic cataloger, writer, and researcher.

Please take a moment to check out my new website: http://www.jacoblipsonrarecoins.com
Edited by NumisCat
03/14/2018 11:50 am
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United States
1438 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  09:28 am  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doug Carlson there are some recommendations in the cataloging:

1. The Wood 16/17 group needs to be looked at closer. One piece labeled Wood 17 is actually Wood 16. The group with the NGC holder. Wood 16/17 differentiation is extremely difficult as few legitimate Wood 17's are around to use as standards. Update: Heritage will change the cataloging of the slab from W17 to W16 but there may not be time to reslab it correctly.

2. The BL-Uncertain type with the cross in the field its reverse needs to be rotated 180*. Its not a head shaped figure its a Britannia shield. As NIA is on the right as in the Wood 38-a in my book and the ANS 1771 CNL Die Study on these types IMO. Although I can see why it was rotated incorrectly 180* - its has much more appeal UPSIDE DOWN! This can be considered a Blacksmith Wood 38 variant. Perhaps a 1771 date is present. Sometimes ownership can dictate provenance. This is the largest holding of Wood 38 variants known. Period. Unfortunately many of these pieces have no pedigrees! List the pedigrees IF KNOWN?

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/bla...ction-120115

3. Wood 42 is unquestionably an English import Evasion as a new book coming out by the C4 group an enitre CCC Family is under a new tag Wood 42 CCC Family which die links this piece to other English made CCCs. Its not more British than Canadian ... its simply British! "Wood 42 is now part of the Wood 42 family of British counterfeits -- they have not been considered Blacksmith tokens for half a century or more BUT because they have a Wood number most collectors buy one just to have the number in their set (quoted from a noted California Collector)."

4. Several of the Wood pieces labeled as Blacksmiths as Wood-Unlisted are English imports. see this group.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/pai...ction-120115

5. This may be a Wood 38 variant as a ghost image of a harp is seen on the reverse.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/low...ction-120115

6. Some may consider this MULE a Blacksmith but it has no real proof as a Blacksmith ... it could be as much a Mexican product as well as a Canadian product. It will bring more money as Canadian so its become a Blacksmith by this reasoning. IMO. Delist IMO from Charlton or label it in the Miscellaneous Token section in Charlton.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/-me...ction-120115

7.Certainly another candidate for my listing of Wood 38's in the Forgotten Book - Crude Obverse Head/Irish Harp reverse and a 1771? date. Check during lot viewing. Some consider these Irish CCC and possibly imports being dated but its UNUSUAL they all have this 1771 date. Maybe not this piece. I consider these severe backdated Blacksmiths dated 1771. Its entry as Wood 38-d? by Charlton. Blacksmiths IMO.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/bla...ction-120115

8.These are all English CCC imports with a Vlack 10-77A ERROR retrograde image probably from a double coin flip process in the screwpress probably at two different time frames IMO using two planchets in the chamber. We see the infamous Wood 42 here a 100% English import. This error is not a squeeze job but its a Machins Mills error! not a Canadian Blacksmith error. Consider two planchets in the screwpress, consider two coin flips - possibly consider it was made under two different time frames as no planchet is ever discarded in the late 18thC at Machins Mills. Some may consider this form of error IMPOSSIBLE. However CCC errors sometimes take our imaginations to the limit!

Step 1: The Vlack 10-77A is fed into the screwpress and in the lower die a pre-struck planchet has flipped over in the screwpress. A new planchet is fed into the screwpress producing a weak obverse (left image) and a retrograde reverse or full reverse brockage. The weakened obverse image being produced since two planchets are now being struck. This I have seen on occasion on error screwpress coinage.

Step 2: Coin is discovered and attempted to be pulled out of the press but the up/down motion by another worker in the pit with the horse is not in sync. with the pit worker feeding the planchets. He attempts to pull it out but is unable and he accidentally fumbles it and it flips over and is half way out and the press is lowered again.

Step 3: It then receives a partial obverse strike on the reverse retrograde side.

Before you say unlikely or impossible see my new book Forgotten Coins or if anyone has Bill Anton's 1992 book he has some fascinating errors during this period as his AK-1 a 1777 George III farthing struck over a 1773 George III halfpenny which may be a die trial? See also Ringo: 6016 (Forgotten - Appendix - Ringo Collection) a triple strike but all evenly struck and showing 8 digits of three or four separate four digit dates!

Realize the striking pressure is not as great or forceful as you guys are expecting so it can be difficult or not as clear to distinguish a squeeze job to a real scenario.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/pai...ction-120115

9.Wood 38 as per the Forgotten Book (page 47) and a new Wood 38 candidate so Wood 38-e since we used (d) above already - if you were counting.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/pai...ction-120115

10. Not a Blacksmith but an Anton-Kesse (AK) variant of AK-2. See the 1992 Edition of Forgotten Coins Anton/Kesse edition Plate Coin #2 so AK-2. Since an AK-2 variant a British import - 100%. Great O/C error!

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/bla...ction-120115

11. All the BL-15 Pennies are CRUDE. WONDERFUL! These are much more crude than the Freudenthal types under the Michael Dolley British Museum group SNJ I discuss in Forgotten. The debate will continue whether these were just meant for Ireland, imported from Birmingham for use in Ireland and then traveled to the Upper/Lower Canada regions or are strictly Blacksmiths and are local products being from this side of the Pond.

This was a tough group to differentiate out the English & Irish CCCs from the Canadian Blacksmiths. Enjoy the sale of these incredible historical pieces in this FANTASTIC collection.

LONG LIVE BLACKSMITHS!
Edited by colonialjohn
03/14/2018 3:33 pm
Valued Member
Canada
191 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  3:53 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisCat's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When comparable sales of U.S. material are offered, there is so much chatter it's impossible to follow all of it. I'm surprised we aren't getting more people to chime in on this. This is on par with Norweb, Belzberg, Ford, Canadiana, and the Landon/Victoria North sales.
Numismatic cataloger, writer, and researcher.

Please take a moment to check out my new website: http://www.jacoblipsonrarecoins.com
Valued Member
Canada
191 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  3:54 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisCat's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
BTW coloneljohn: Amazing information.
Numismatic cataloger, writer, and researcher.

Please take a moment to check out my new website: http://www.jacoblipsonrarecoins.com
Pillar of the Community
United States
1438 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  5:13 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Remember some of its still subjective - the origin of the BL-15's, the origin of these 1771 Wood 38 Die Family of Harps.

Some still lingering and refusing to DIE or be delisted - Wood 42 which refuses to DIE as a Blacksmith. That Mexican Sou piece. Wood 33 still remains in LIMBO as it does not fit a British Evasion mold very easily.

Keep an eye out for the new book by the C4 group on the English/Irish Counterfeits. Authors: Rock, Moore, Palmer, Weston and others. Very soon. Possibly available at the Baltimore-Whitman Show.

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United States
1438 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  5:24 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It sure did not take long to find a better photo of Wood 38-b from Forgotten Coins. See page 49 in Forgotten. Yes Haxby - much better internal details! LOL

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/bla...ction-120115

Same bust features and harp outline - PERFECTLY - what I now call Blacksmith Wood 38-b. Just noted for accuracy.

INCREDIBLE! Again if you are lot viewing see if the remaining date is visible - as 1771. Send me an E-Mail and I will note it in my copy of Forgotten.

Edited by colonialjohn
03/14/2018 5:27 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2947 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The possible reasons that the buzz is not there is , one there are just not that many heavy hitters of Canadian Tokens right now. Two, the Canadian Dollar is totally in the tank ( worst performance of ANY G20 Currency this year) and the sale is in USD.
To reason that all the heavy hitters will turn this sale into a shark feeding frenzy , is quite simply not going to be the case.
The best of the best will do very well for sure , but I fear some of the lots may go quite cheaply , or go begging altogether.
The Canadian Coin Market is very very soft at present and until there are some severe changes , economically , politically , and demographically , doubt it is going to improve much.
Now where is that catalogue and my bidder form ! Oh and my plane ticket to Chicago.
Edited by Pacificoin
03/14/2018 5:33 pm
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United States
2537 Posts
 Posted 03/14/2018  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Check XavierOfGreen's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add XavierOfGreen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What is I think the finest PC-2B 1842 Bank of Montreal Penny is included in this auction. Its a MS66 RB, and it puts my own MS64 BN to shame lol. There are also two proofs of this issue being placed up for sale at the same time, which is stupid, since it will merely depress the prices of both.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/wor...ption-071515
Oldest Found-------
Cent: 1842 (from machine) ---- Three Cent: 1866 [Nickel] (from machine)
Nickel: 1883 (from roll) ---- Dime: 1911 (from roll)
Quarter: 1932 (from machine) ---- Half: 1917 (from roll)
Dollar: 1880 (from machine) ---- Foreign: 1863 (from machine)
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Canada
2074 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2018  07:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is another of those collections that you just look at from a distance, and dream.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4120 Posts
 Posted 03/15/2018  12:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Although I collect very few tokens, I do appreciate the quality of this collection, I kind of question the idea of like having 6 or so Bmo sideviews in one sale, generally with auctions too many of same items get cherry picked and the other units get slaughtered
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