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Your help needed with an old copper coin

 
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Valued Member
Belgium
437 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2018  12:40 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Unknown place of origin
Unknown date, probably end 16th beginning 17th century


OBV? crowned coat of arms with hammer, pincers, legend MONET(a) INE VE?BUM D?
REV? crowned double eagle, wilhelm II ?

no idea what it could be; curious fields I have never seen before; could find no description nor matching piece


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United States
2366 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2018  1:13 pm  Show Profile   Check chafemasterj's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Huh. Those look like blacksmith tools on the shield.
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10197 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2018  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of those emergency issues? Austrian states perhaps?
Valued Member
Belgium
437 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2018  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks for helpful comments !

@chafemasterj
yes indeed - blacksmiths or perhaps the guild of coinmakers? a St. Elois coin?

@Crazyb0
could indeed be, this is not my area of collecting, so I do not know it at all

the closest image of tools on a copper coin that I've seen are on a Canadian coin:
T.S. Brown & Company - 1/2 penny 1837
http://www.coinsandcanada.com/token...-1837&id=204

but I believe the piece of this thread is about 200 - 250 yrs older
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 Posted 05/26/2018  3:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Need the size, weight and any date you may be able to see in hand, a quick look through the lower German/Austrian states yielded nothing close, a crowned eagle, may be further south in Europe. But I do think it is a private or emergency issue (seige) currency. Even the Dutch area? With Latin, it would be within the Holy Roman Empire, up to 1806.
Valued Member
Belgium
437 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2018  3:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Crazyb0

good ideas, thanks !

no exact weight, lacking a balance, must certainly get an accurate number, I agree
diameter: about the size of a US quarter

I know the copper siege coins of the Netherlands of that period (Maastricht, Deventer, Cambrai) - nothing like this

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United States
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 Posted 05/26/2018  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Check chafemasterj's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just throwing it out there.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces104470.html
The description of the reverse looks interesting.

Found this too which may be why it's so obscure?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmith_token
http://goccf.com/t/303774
Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
Edited by chafemasterj
05/26/2018 3:58 pm
Valued Member
Belgium
437 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2018  5:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
how great to receive feedback!

interesting link to blacksmith tokens from Canada (19th century)

perhaps too far fetched but could this be a token of the coin makers somewhere in Europe, 16th century; it would explain the coat of arms with some coin making tools

does the reverse left represent a pair of dies used for hand-hammered coins; there even seems to be a planchet between the upper and lower dies? or is this wishful thinking

Valued Member
United States
264 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2018  7:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add willieboyd2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The first side might be "VERBVM DOMI MONET IN ETERNV"
It could be a Dutch Netherlands token and might be in here:
http://www.dugniolle.com/dugniolle2501-2600.html

http://www.brianrxm.com
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Coins in Movies and on Television
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United States
8734 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2018  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
blacksmith tokens


So interesting how we all look at the same image and draw different conclusions. I looked at that area on the rev and thought that it was a plumed helmet from a suit of armor.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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Valued Member
Belgium
437 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2018  03:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@willieboyd2


Quote:
"VERBVM DOMI MONET IN ETERNV" => It could be a Dutch Netherlands token

thanks for fantastic idea => I will explore Dugniolle again for using this new text clue

@Spence


Quote:
So interesting how we all look at the same image and draw different conclusions


very true !
this is part of the fun when trying to determine something odd and unknown, maybe rare too as so far no second piece popped up
thanks for the suggestion to search in an other direction
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 Posted 05/27/2018  04:46 am  Show Profile   Check chafemasterj's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Does the reverse left represent a pair of dies used for hand-hammered coins.?



What a neat possibility. Certainly could be.


http://goccf.com/t/303774
Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
Valued Member
Belgium
437 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2018  08:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What a neat possibility. Certainly could be.

thanks chafemasterj

arguments for two possibilities are accumulating

1) token of some kind of organisation of coin makers
2) coin of the counter reformation in Germany

as concerns the second, the suggestion "VERBVM DOMI MONET IN ETERNV" made by willieboyd2 is perhaps significant

actually the motto that is famous is
VERBUM DOMINI MANET IN AETERNUM
The Word of the Lord Endures Forever

it was the early motto of the Lutheran Reformation, appeared for the first time in the court of Frederick the Wise in 1522 as can be seen on the medaillentaler below.


Drawing from: Otto Henne am Rhyn: Kulturgeschichte des deutschen Volkes, Zweiter Band, Berlin 1897, S.14

William IV of Bayern became from 1524 the political leader of the German counter reformation
A slightly altered legend
VERBUM DOMINI MONET IN AETERNUM
The Word of the Lord Warns Forever

the MONET could also be a joke of the coin makers of course
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 Posted 05/27/2018  09:30 am  Show Profile   Check chafemasterj's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The theory of the image being of a set of dies with a blank or flan inserted fascinates me for some reason. I've been trying to find an image of a surviving die set that resembles the image with no luck. I did find this passage describing the different types that I think covers what we're looking at.

"In striking a coin two dies, an obverse and a reverse, were usually employed. The obverse or lower die would have been set into an anvil, often a block of wood. The upper, reverse die was loose, and could take a variety of different forms. The type could be cut directly into the end of a short rod, cylinder, or pyramidal piece of metal, but most often the die proper was simply a short segment or disk of bronze inserted into a punch or collar made of iron. The whole punch, with the reverse die attached, was probably only about two to three inches long."

Here is the link to the entire article. Interesting read:
https://www2.lawrence.edu/dept/art/...UCTION6.HTML
http://goccf.com/t/303774
Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
Edited by chafemasterj
05/27/2018 09:32 am
Valued Member
Belgium
437 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2018  10:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
interesting read chafemasterj, thanks !

below on the left a view of a 16th century mint and on the right a surviving die set from one of the mints of Holland around 1550



I tend to favor possibility 1) - a token from the mint makers; full of practical jokes; for instance one could consider some details on the crown on the obv:
* a small hammer is shaping the crown on the obv
** on the other side sits a small bird

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United States
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 Posted 05/27/2018  10:47 am  Show Profile   Check chafemasterj's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh wow. I hadn't noticed that. Good eye.

I suppose if you were minting coins illegally you may as well go full out and poke fun at the Crown while you're at it.

Edit: Perhaps the hammer die or die holder that we see on the coin is what they looked like prior to being mushroomed over by use.

Edit number 2: I finally see all the parts of a crowned eagle. My mind wouldn't put all the pieces there together before.
http://goccf.com/t/303774
Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
Edited by chafemasterj
05/27/2018 10:55 am
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