Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

How Far Back Can We Go? Fifth Edition!

 
Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 302
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
12496 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2019  04:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
the Dutch lobster



Here is a 1/24 Thaler from the German Bishopric of Hildesheim dated AD 1603:



"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Edited by Spence
08/13/2019 04:49 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
2245 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2019  06:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The painting is fascinating, though I think Snayers took some liberties with perspective. Is there really a hill that high in coastal Flanders?
Edited by tdziemia
08/13/2019 06:28 am
Valued Member
Sweden
71 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2019  07:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Quote:
the earliest Swedish coins that feature the tetragrammaton are the fyrks, 1/2 ore and 1 ore coins struck by Karl IX (Charles IX) as Regent in the period from 1598-1604.

It seems plausible then that Dutch merchants brought some copper (or silver) jetons from the period 1574-1597 to Sweden. (there are many with a tetragrammaton as we will see during the next weeks).

Quite possibly. There were also Dutch immigrants in Stockholm at the end of the 16th century - artisans, ship builders. Charles most likely came into contact with that community and it seems he got a positive impression of their skills and usefulness for Swedish trade and development. In 1603 he initiated the foundation of the town Gothenburg on the Swedish west coast, with the express intention to populate it with specifically Dutch tradesmen and craftsmen. He also hoped that their contacts with European bankers would help finance his war with Poland... (Unfortunately the town was ransacked and burnt by the Danes already in 1611 and had to be founded anew by Charles's son Gustav II Adolf.)
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
965 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2019  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The painting is fascinating, though I think Snayers took some liberties with perspective. Is there really a hill that high in coastal Flanders?


Your point is well taken, tdziemia ! The highest dunes around Oostende are 30 meters above (current) sea levels at most, so the perspective is artistic freedom.

Below a Dutch jeton of 1603, one of my favorites, illustrating the contest between muscle and brain being more important for the outcome of a battle. The obverse shows a snapshot of the well known fable of the fox and the raven; the reverse shows a plan of the beleaguered city.



Below another painting of the situation in 1603, by Sebastiaan_Vrancx who also imagined he was painting a Norvegian fjord; and an anonymous sketch of the ground situation.


Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
5700 Posts
 Posted 08/13/2019  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1603 -- Kingdom of Spain, 2 maravedis:
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
965 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  02:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1602 Jeton from Dordrecht, United Provinces 'Capture of Grave and destruction of Luxembourg'
Dugn.3541, vLoonI.572, Tas358



Obv tetragrammaton in circle of flames, circle of clouds around SIT NOMEN. DOMINI. BENEDICTUM. CICICCII
Rev. Latin text HOS PROVOC POST TVMVLT GRAV CAP TRIIDE PRESS ET SVBMERSS VIII EQ TVRM CAES AGR LVX VAST SEN FOE PP F F describing Capture of Grave by Maurice of Nassau and destruction of Luxembourg by the Spanish army.
Valued Member
Sweden
71 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  03:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
France/Béarn: 1/4 écu, Henry IV, 1602, Pau mint.

Although both France and Navarre had Henry IV of France as king since 1589, they remained separate kingdoms until 1620. Navarre, as well as Béarn, a province in Navarre, minted their own coins. Since the early 16th century Navarre (and Béarn) had harmonized their monetary system with that of France, and the coins of both countries were valid in the other and from 1589 their basic designs were the same, but with different arms and inscriptions.

Henry IV, besides being king of France and Navarre, was also Lord of Béarn. This is signified on the Béarn coins by the letters DB - Dominus Bearnie - in ligature following Henry's regal titles (FRANCiae ET NAvarrae REX).

The reverse shows the combined arms of France, Navarre, and Béarn, with the two cows being that of Béarn. The inscription is the motto of the Béarnese Lords: GRATIA DEI SUM id QuoD SUM (By the grace of God I am who I am).

Pau was one of few French/Navarre mints that employed mechanical coining for silver coins at this time. Almost all mints still hammered those. The general high minting quality and regularity of Pau coins stick out compared to contemporary écus from other mints.

Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
12496 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  04:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a 3 Pfennig from the German Free City of Münster dated AD 1602:



"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Pillar of the Community
United States
2245 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  06:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Really great posts this morning, including the accounting of historical events in both north and south of Europe at this time.
My 3-year drought ends tomorrow
Pillar of the Community
United States
524 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  06:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joecoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Quote:
the Dutch lobster



Well, I made a mistake and googled it.

I was gonna make a joke about "Mess with the lobster, get the claw" or some such. Sheesh.
Pillar of the Community
United States
524 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  06:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joecoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The painting is fascinating, though I think Snayers took some liberties with perspective. Is there really a hill that high in coastal Flanders?


My first thoughts were along the same lines.

But then I thought, well that's why they built the tower, there is little to no elevation there.

Still a wonderful painting.
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
965 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  3:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
France/Béarn: 1/4 écu, Henry IV, 1602, Pau mint.


indeed, made with great precision, and very well preserved; a very nice coin !


Quote:
But then I thought, well that's why they built the tower, there is little to no elevation there.


indeed, the engineers of Albert made an artifact that may have influenced the outcome: they took the last Dutch stronghold on the current Belgian coast. It was important to take this stronghold, as the Dutch and English navy used the naval basis of Oostende as stronghold for raiding and plundering operations of the Spanish Netherlands.


Quote:
Quote: the Dutch lobster
I googled too: such perversions are not known on this side of the Atlantic

below a 1602 jeton, made in Utrecht, one of the the United Provinces, celebrating the capture of Grave



Grave can hardly be called a city as the number of regular inhabitants was low (today less than 10,000). However, it was a strongly defended military basis along one of the major rivers that guarded the borderline between the Northern and Southern provinces, on the frontier between the Duchy of Brabant and the province of Ghelders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege...Grave_(1602)



"Graven" is a Dutch word meaning "to dig". This explains the emblematic reverse of the jeton. The obverse is a bit enigmatic: a man lifting a heavy mill stone with a lever. ARS GRAVE TOLLIT ONVS ORD TRA REV Perhaps it was insinuated that the capture of Grave would create political leverage towards a truce with the Spanish Netherlands.

Below a contemporary map of the siege (document from the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam) and a satellite image of the village and surroundings today; parts of the military defenses of 1602 are still clearly visible. This is the case for many Dutch towns today (Naarden, Hulst, Coevoorden, etc): satellite images clearly show the remains of the 80-years war which has changed the future of the low countries.



Edited by 1c5d7n5m
08/14/2019 3:06 pm
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2813 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petrus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some more history about Grave (not Graven)
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_(plaats)
sorry it is in dutch only, but google translate can help

I like the Fifth Edition! So much intresting history!
Edited by Petrus
08/14/2019 3:41 pm
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
75094 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I like the Fifth Edition! So much intresting history!
Indeed!
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
965 Posts
 Posted 08/14/2019  5:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1c5d7n5m to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Siege of Grave and the defense of Oostende was an English/Dutch military operation against the Spanish Netherlands. The English effort was supported by queen Elisabeth I (we'll see her on Dutch Jetons of the 1580-ies and 1590-ies and jointly led by Francis Veere (England) and Maurice of Nassau (United Provinces).

Siege of Grave, seen from the opposite bank of the river Maas. Pen drawing by Simon Fokke.



The fun of the history-part of these jetons has been around for many generations of coin collectors in Holland and Belgium. A great example is Gerard van Loon who made an excellent description of the jetons and medals of the Low Countries during the 80 years war. Four volumes printed between 1723 and 1731 !

Edited by 1c5d7n5m
08/14/2019 5:48 pm
Page: of 302 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.32 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05