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C'mon PCGS: They can't both be F15 Oregon Commems

 
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 Posted 06/26/2018  01:32 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You do actually seem to be pushing an agenda.

Should I also prove 2 + 2 equals 4? How about that gravity exists or that the earth isn't flat?

This is elementary 101 about the process.

Hate them, don't use them, ignore them I don't care, just stop with the misinformation.

The most basic level of research that would take about a commercial break to find would show PCGS uses two graders minimum per coin. So does NGC so does ICG.

Do some research instead of just constantly challenging me for correcting misformation about basic processes


My "agenda" is to gather fact-based information concerning the hobby, not baseless statements. I appreciate the intellectual insults. That certainly adds to everyone's knowledge.

I seem to hit a wall when attempting to research exactly how many people actually grade any given coin submitted and exactly how long they spend in examination before giving their informed opinion. Only first-hand experience can answer that, to some degree, and the vast majority of collectors do not have that or access to it. If you have access or have had access so as to give an informed opinion, it would be most welcome. Otherwise, your statements mean as much as mine concerning the process. I have read how PCGS describes the process.

The reason why I seem to be "constantly challenging" you is because you demonstrably speak up about these processes (to the negative) relatively often and they are usually unaccompanied by supporting evidence.

That's all there is to it. I'm not attempting to prove a point in a debate. I am attempting to get some proof for the dissenting opinion in a debate. That is my position.

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 Posted 07/03/2018  8:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add two_tonevf35 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's even worse for Barber half dollars than Commems - the wizards will straight holder harshly cleaned coins at the technical grade, and then *downgrade* a little bit of heavy toning (not talking moss, black or major crust either).

Just go to eBay and search PCGS VF / XF classic silver coinage. Leaves me "SMH" alot of times. But that's playing the game.



PCGS submissions 2005-2018. Mailings(21) Orders(43) / 249 coin attempts. 12 Fails(5%) / Member vouchers(19%) Economy(62%) Regular(13%) Free(3%) Express(3%) / Barber 50c (46%) Classic Commemorative (38%) Hawaii(3%) SCD (6%) Other(3%)/ Fails: Cleaned(2) Alt surfaces(1) Scratch(1) Damage(1) "86"(3) 2 Columbian & 1 BTW; Min Grade(2) DNC(2)-Same coin NGC XF40 Barber 50c. Express fees paid by seller (cross guarantee). Kept the coin & later submitted raw: PCGS XF40 [eyeroll] Fails: Econ(8) Regular(2) Express(2)/// Other TPGs: ICG (2011-2018): 35/35 NGC: 0 ANACS: 0
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 Posted 07/03/2018  8:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mark1959 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Term Limits" for PCGS graders - LOL!
"I have enough money to last me the rest of my life, unless I have to buy something."

Working on a Dansco 8166 Kennedy half album. 131pcs ,of 160 total, so far
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 Posted 07/03/2018  8:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Do some research instead of just constantly challenging me for correcting misformation about basic processes


Then back it up so we can all be as "enlightened" as you are!

Your reply to this... instead of giving us verifiable facts ... will likely again follow your past habits:

Demand verifiable facts of others or call their posts lies.

Run from any request for sources of your "facts."

Divert attention - while still not giving sources - by trying to push people into a defensive position.










- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  9:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
.Then back it up so we can all be as "enlightened" as you are!


You know what their website is go read it. Go watch their videos about the grading process. Read the FAQ sections. Go ask on their forums if you still don't believe it.

Like I said actually do some reasearch on your own, the multiple graders is the most basic of processes that all 4 of the eBay approved TPGs use.

This is like the old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Edited by basebal21
07/03/2018 9:04 pm
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 Posted 07/03/2018  9:45 pm  Show Profile   Check Ploopy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Ploopy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Like I said actually do some reasearch on your own


You replied, counteracting his statement as wrong, but haven't proven it. Since you say it is false, burden of proof is on you. I am interested to see both sides and would like to see your evidence.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You know what their website is go read it.

So your verifiable fact/source(s) is to simply to take it on faith that their sales pitch is 100% accurate? Am I misreading this...or are you actually serious?

I heard that in the past there were very convincing salesmen willing to sell people the Brooklyn Bridge.

Its is not difficult to find slabs such as in this thread as can be seen by searching this forum. The myriad problems such as this are part of why it is echoed over and over, "buy the coin, not the slab."

For some people, we prefer to use our own eyes as a more reliable source than the claims of the business selling their goods.


Quote:
Like I said actually do some research on your own

I did. You asked for my sources in a previous thread. I shared them. You said the sources meant nothing. I suggested you contact them so you did not have to take my word for it.

Typically, you ran... refused to contact them and changed the the topic to the "agenda" you accuse people of.



Quote:
eBay approved

Means little - a business decision from a non-numismatic entity.



Quote:
This is like the old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

A horse only drinks when it NEEDS water. No matter how nice someone talks to a horse (and what claims the owner makes), the horse will know the fact of whether or not its thirsty.
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Optimist-numismatist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have recently toned back my dislike of tpgs, however Earl42 is right, going off of what PCGS says in this case, despite evidence proving otherwise is like letting a defendant walk free because they just happening to say they didn't do, when there is photographed evidence against them.
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 Posted 07/03/2018  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

So your verifiable fact/source(s) is to simply to take it on faith that their sales pitch is 100% accurate? Am I misreading this...or are you actually serious?


They do do that. Don't believe me go to the CU forum and ask Insider2, that's Skip from ICG.

Or go through the PCGS stock reports if you want them specifically, they're a publicly traded company that has to provide accurate information


Quote:

For some people, we prefer to use our own eyes as a more reliable source than the claims of the business selling their goods.


That has nothing to do with the actual process. As I said I don't care do what makes you happy, ignore every slabbed coin if you want just stop arguing about basic known facts about the process or having people post incorrect information about the process.


Quote:
I did. You asked for my sources in a previous thread. I shared them. You said the sources meant nothing. I suggested you contact them so you did not have to take my word for it.


Has absolutely NOTHING to do with that, you need to let that go. I'm done arguing about that over and over nothing is going to change your mind. Plenty of others know what actually happens.


Quote:
Means little - a business decision from a non-numismatic entity.


I used eBay approved as nothing more than a descriptor instead of saying PCGS/ICG/NGC/ANACS and even CAC if you want to include that.


Quote:
A horse only drinks when it NEEDS water. No matter how nice someone talks to a horse (and what claims the owner makes), the horse will know the fact of whether or not its thirsty.


You've been lead to water, you know where to find the information about their grading process and can even call them when they're open again on Thursday if you'd like. Whether or not you choose to find the information is on you but I'm not going to argue for page after page about their basic grading process that involves more than one grader

Edited by basebal21
07/03/2018 10:04 pm
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 Posted 07/03/2018  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Check Adam_E's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Adam_E to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You replied, counteracting his statement as wrong, but haven't proven it. Since you say it is false, burden of proof is on you. I am interested to see both sides and would like to see your evidence.


I dont have any dog in this race, but I would like to chime in and say that in general, this is not correct. The burden of proof is on the original claim. You (generally) can't prove a claim is false, and you certainly shouldn't have to if the original claim wasn't backed up with facts. I only skimmed the comments, but from what I've read it seems like there's been unbacked assertions on both sides.

Now to get back on track, here's what PCGS themselves say about their process( https://www.PCGS.com/PCGS-grading-process-video )
"Each order is distributed to graders based on their particular skill and expertise. While the graders are generally trained to handle coins from virtually all eras, they are assigned coins based on their strengths. The sheer number of graders assigned to each coin can also vary depending on the type of coin submitted. In all cases, at minimum, 3-4 graders are assigned to every coin for grading and verification.

As each grader receives the order, they will enter the order number into the computer. This provides the contents of that order on the PCGS grading screen. Grader #1 will then enter his grade for the coin in question (and for each coin within the order until the order is completed) and close the order on his screen. Once Grader #1 has completed grading the order, the order is redistributed for Grader #2 to provide their grade and so forth. Each grader is not privy to the opinion of the other graders on any of the coins within that order.

If their grades match in the computer, the coin would then go to a 3rd grader at the Grading Verification Stage. If the opinion of the first two graders does not match, that coin will be assigned to a 3rd grader whose opinion is required to "break the tie." As a PCGS standard, the coin would still be assigned to yet a 4th grader for verification to make sure the grade is accurate and consistent."


Based off of this, it seems like you have a minimum of 2 graders independently grading the coin, then you have one grader grading it after it's been holdered. All it really takes is one mistake from two different people, then a third person who has a little bit too much trust in the skill of the first two people. I would also be willing to bet that the third "grader" is probably more of a general quality control person to verify the information of the label is correct, and likely less experienced than the actual graders. This is purely a guess though.

I haven't seen and nor am I willing to look for evidence that contradicts this, because anything short of the words from a current or former PCGS grader will be pretty much irrelevant in this discussion, and I can nearly guarantee that you won't be seeing that anytime soon. I personally have no reason to doubt the accuracy of PCGS's own words, but to each their own.

Generally I go by this principle: The simplest answer is usually the right one. Which is more likely to you: PCGS graders are human and therefore fallible, and even multiple professional graders can mis-grade a coin multiple times. Or: PCGS has decided to outright lie to the public, risking the entire public image of their company to save having to hire some extra graders, even though they run a multi-million dollar business. Remember that this would require the trust of silence from very many people in multiple levels of the company, much of which are likely passionate about this hobby themselves and probably wouldn't like to see something like this happen.

Edited by Adam_E
07/03/2018 10:26 pm
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 Posted 07/04/2018  11:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
anything short of the words from a current or former PCGS grader will be pretty much irrelevant in this discussion,

In former threads I offered the contact information of former graders who both, independent of each other and at different times, said they stopped grading b/c they did not like how the process was actually handled vs. what the claims were.

Yes, there were three graders who saw each coin, but both men told me it was a rushed process (unlike the online videos) b/c they were paid per coin. They said the situation felt more like making sure they were keeping up the pace between the graders.

The one also told me he researched with other large dealers and found it consistent that 20% of monster boxes were coming back MS70 , yet by examining the MS70 slabes he could find dimgs etc. He was convinced they just randomly pull out 20& and put the MS70 grade onto them. When he polled fellow large collectors, he found the same results. He challenged me to look at MS70 ASEs to see this for myself. I did, he was right.

Both former graders also challenged me to start looking at the coins and not the slabs. Results such as the one in this thread and are not difficult to find. A couple mroe are listed. Search to find more if interested.

CCF post concerning FS nickels:
http://goccf.com/t/322731#2751288

Slabbing wrong die varieties as legitimate No FG Kennedy halves:


Start looking at slabbed NO FG coins sold online. You will not find it hard to see the FG ghosted there when legitimate No FGs can be found. Even on dates where it is is known the die had the initial polished off, a few can be found where there is no trace of the FG no matter how you tilt the coin to the light. But so many of the slabbed ones have ghosted initials that are not hard to see if you look at the coin and not the slab.

The words on TPG websites are what ideally should be what they do. As anyone in the business world knows, what is presented to the customer may be the set system the people go through, However, situations, such as the graders I got my info from, demonstrate how the wording and the product can easily produce different results.

"Buy the coin and not the slab," has a lot more merit to it than expecting words on a salesman's sight to be bulletproof - especially when the product can be found faulty without much trouble if seen without rose colored glasses.

Again I want to make it clear that I say "go for it" if a person likes to collect slabs. They DO look great on display and lined up together. Its a hobby, which is about fun. Collecting slabs is just as legitimate as collecting any other items people like to collect.

But like Spruett, I desire facts being stated. I so not like how I see newbies getting pulled into a marketing mindset that slabbing is an essential part of the hobby. Slabbing is simply an optional service that exists to make money selling their product.



- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
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 Posted 07/04/2018  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Generally I go by this principle: The simplest answer is usually the right one. Which is more likely to you: PCGS graders are human and therefore fallible, and even multiple professional graders can mis-grade a coin multiple times. Or: PCGS has decided to outright lie to the public, risking the entire public image of their company to save having to hire some extra graders, even though they run a multi-million dollar business. Remember that this would require the trust of silence from very many people in multiple levels of the company, much of which are likely passionate about this hobby themselves and probably wouldn't like to see something like this happen.


Exactly this. Not to mention that just because someone disagrees with a grade from a picture doesn't mean the TPGs were actually wrong.


Quote:
Yes, there were three graders who saw each coin,


So the only people who you will ever believe tell you multiple people grade each coin yet you come into this tread anyway to start an argument with me for saying that multiple people grade every coin This is getting exhausting


Quote:
I so not like how I see newbies getting pulled into a marketing mindset that slabbing is an essential part of the hobby.


Like it or not it is now an essential part of the hobby and will just continue to grow as it has been for decades now. You're not going to ever turn back the clock and go back to raw that ship has sailed long ago.
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 Posted 07/04/2018  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Check Adam_E's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Adam_E to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In former threads I offered the contact information of former graders who both, independent of each other and at different times, said they stopped grading b/c they did not like how the process was actually handled vs. what the claims were.

Yes, there were three graders who saw each coin, but both men told me it was a rushed process (unlike the online videos) b/c they were paid per coin. They said the situation felt more like making sure they were keeping up the pace between the graders.


It's really hard for me to just take your word for this, it seems incredibly weird to me that they would pay you based off the amount of coins you grade considering there is a massive variance in difficulty not just between series and denominations, but also from coin to coin. I can see it being a rushed process, but it's very hard for me to believe that that they dont get paid a base salary. I can, however, see them giving bonuses for grading certain amounts of coins.

I have a contact who was with NGC for 12 years, I'll give him a shout and ask if this seems plausible or done at NGC.


Quote:
The one also told me he researched with other large dealers and found it consistent that 20% of monster boxes were coming back MS70 , yet by examining the MS70 slabes he could find dimgs etc. He was convinced they just randomly pull out 20& and put the MS70 grade onto them. When he polled fellow large collectors, he found the same results. He challenged me to look at MS70 ASEs to see this for myself. I did, he was right.


When I worked for a dealer, he definitely did have "in" deals with NGC. He would would have me write "at least 5 MS 70 per John Doe" on the invoice for example. I wont speculate too far as to how exactly they do it, but it seems likely to me that they would pick the best five examples of the group that we sent. I personally have absolutely no faith in MS 70 and PR 70 coins vs 69's, I just dont think it's really possible to be that consistent in deciding whether a coin is 100% perfect or 99% perfect. So to me, it really doesn't make a difference in how they get their 70's



Quote:
Again I want to make it clear that I say "go for it" if a person likes to collect slabs. They DO look great on display and lined up together. Its a hobby, which is about fun. Collecting slabs is just as legitimate as collecting any other items people like to collect.

But like Spruett, I desire facts being stated. I so not like how I see newbies getting pulled into a marketing mindset that slabbing is an essential part of the hobby. Slabbing is simply an optional service that exists to make money selling their product.


I agree with you here, that's why I look for information from the source primarily. Remember, all I was talking about was the amount of professional eyes that get set on an individual coin that is submitted, so far, it seems like that answer is at a minimum of three.
Edited by Adam_E
07/04/2018 1:14 pm
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 Posted 07/04/2018  4:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It's really hard for me to just take your word for this, it seems incredibly weird to me that they would pay you based off the amount of coins you grade considering there is a massive variance in difficulty not just between series and denominations, but also from coin to coin.

No need to. Contact the owner of Antietam Coin Exchange in Hagerstown, MD and talk with him directly about it. Its been a few years since he and I talked, but he was one of the graders, and a trusted coin dealer, that I talked with.



The other guy I talked with is "retired" from the coin business. His name is Ray Wasosky - a noted dealer when in business in NW PA. I could likely try to find him if interested. He and I emailed over this and I called him and talked to him. Again though, I would need to try to find his contact info.



Quote:
When I worked for a dealer, he definitely did have "in" deals with NGC. He would would have me write "at least 5 MS 70 per John Doe" on the invoice for example. I wont speculate too far as to how exactly they do it, but it seems likely to me that they would pick the best five examples of the group that we sent.

Where there is smoke, there is fire. What bothers me is dishonesty by people who have made a reputation (earned or not) so the unknowing and overly trusting can be/are taken for a ride.

This can especially be sad when thousands of dollars can hinge on just one grade. Money and marketers who understand mob psychology all play a a part in it.

And I agree with you, from personal experience, that the MS70 etc. grades are not worthy of having faith in them. Again, where there is smoke, there is fire.

- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
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 Posted 07/04/2018  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDollar2017 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This thread has turned into:







If this discussion continues for too long, IMO a Moderator should lock this topic.
Collector of all classic US coinage.

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