Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest! Check out our Google+!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

C'mon PCGS: They can't both be F15 Oregon Commems  
 

Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 6
Valued Member
Canada
481 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2018  5:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Optimist-numismatist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
.This thread has turned into:







If this discussion continues for too long, IMO a Moderator should lock this topic.


I disagree, it seems every time a controversial topic is discussed the thread gets locked even when there is no reason for it.

We should be able to for once have a civil discussion/debate without the thread getting locked.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4288 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2018  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SilverDollar2017 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's fine if you disagree. I specifically put IMO in front of my statement, which means "in my opinion."

Collector of all classic US coinage.

How to identify cleaned coins: http://goccf.com/t/319679
Edited by SilverDollar2017
07/04/2018 5:08 pm
Valued Member
Canada
481 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2018  5:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Optimist-numismatist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
.That's fine if you disagree. I specifically put IMO in front of my statement.



True, true. My bad.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10471 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2018  6:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

It's really hard for me to just take your word for this, it seems incredibly weird to me that they would pay you based off the amount of coins you grade considering there is a massive variance in difficulty not just between series and denominations, but also from coin to coin. I can see it being a rushed process, but it's very hard for me to believe that that they dont get paid a base salary. I can, however, see them giving bonuses for grading certain amounts of coins.


They absolutely have a base salary now, you can find it in the PCGS finance report if your really want to dig through it. Like you said the top guys doing classics and worlds ect wouldn't do it without a base salary


Quote:
Its been a few years since he and I talked, but he was one of the graders, and a trusted coin dealer, that I talked with.


He's a random dealer who may or may not have ever worked at a TPG as it has never been proven. It's never been named which one it supposedly was, for all we know it was a second rate one at best if ever.

Even if for the sake of argument he did, it was decades ago times have changed greatly.


Quote:
I disagree, it seems every time a controversial topic is discussed the thread gets locked even when there is no reason for it.

We should be able to for once have a civil discussion/debate without the thread getting locked.


Pillar of the Community
United States
5321 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2018  6:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The contact info is there.

And yes, when facts and contact info are being posted, locking is the best way to hide it so others won't see it.

- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3713 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2018  6:44 pm  Show Profile   Check Adam_E's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Adam_E to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If this discussion continues for too long, IMO a Moderator should lock this topic.


Honestly this is an incredibly interesting discussion to me, and if it's devoid of rampant speculation and pointless personal attacks it has a place, because it really is an important question. How much trust can you really place in a TPG? Enough to buy a coin that has a drastic price increase in a single digit change in grade?


Quote:
No need to. Contact the owner of Antietam Coin Exchange in Hagerstown, MD and talk with him directly about it. Its been a few years since he and I talked, but he was one of the graders, and a trusted coin dealer, that I talked with.
The other guy I talked with is "retired" from the coin business. His name is Ray Wasosky - a noted dealer when in business in NW PA. I could likely try to find him if interested. He and I emailed over this and I called him and talked to him. Again though, I would need to try to find his contact info.


If you could find someone who's actually willing to go on record about their past experience as an actual TPG grader(recently, not like 10 years ago) and go into detail about the process that would be incredibly interesting to me, I would have figured that talking about this stuff would violate an NDA, but it's possible I'm wrong. I'll write down those contacts and check it out, thank you.


Quote:

Where there is smoke, there is fire. What bothers me is dishonesty by people who have made a reputation (earned or not) so the unknowing and overly trusting can be/are taken for a ride.

This can especially be sad when thousands of dollars can hinge on just one grade. Money and marketers who understand mob psychology all play a a part in it.

And I agree with you, from personal experience, that the MS70 etc. grades are not worthy of having faith in them. Again, where there is smoke, there is fire.


And you may very well be right, and I have no problem with people expressing doubt with the accuracy or legitimacy of a business's practices. But I personally wouldn't be comfortable with bad mouthing a company without significant amounts of evidence on the contrary, and it's frustrating to me if someone brings forth a claim that they have huge amounts of confidence in without such evidence(not saying you don't have that, this is just a general statement).

I'm still quite young, so I may only have this opinion because I haven't personally experienced all the ways businesses can take advantage of you(*cough* equifax *cough*). I probably am a little bit too far on the trusting side.

Edited by Adam_E
07/04/2018 6:56 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
5321 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2018  8:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Adam, I am glad you are here to learn. As you get older you will undoubtedly find there are a lot of businesses that put forth a good front, and they may very well mean to stick to what they say, but the day to day workings do not meet what the words seem to imply. Think politics.


The very fact that the hobby has the phrase "buy the coin and not the slab" shows that people have found it wise to not just put a stamp of blind acceptance on something b/c it has a label on it.

As an example:


Quote:
Even if for the sake of argument he did, it was decades ago times have changed greatly.


This reply was given in response to the contact information you asked for being supplied. The reply is worded as a seemingly absolute fact.

Yet, unless contact was made to ask the owner of the shop how long ago he graded, then the phrase "it was decades ago" is baseless opinion/wishful thinking.

Now I will apologize ahead of time if contact actually was made before this reply was posted, and I will gladly admit I was wrong. But the shop hours are not this late at night.


Each of the TPGs have their own experts trained in their own way - so who is right?

No coin, once broken out, is guaranteed to ever have the same grade assigned again.

There are a lot of slabs like the one of this thread, the examples I posted earlier, etc.

Do your own research by not just reading/watching promo videos. Look here for the problems that continually arise with slabs. You already said you know of a less than honest ordeal with MS70 slabs being assigned.

The important things is not if someone likes to collect slabs. The important thing to know is that just like everything else, use common sense and buy the coin, not the slab. The marketing divisions have done their job a little too well when coins can be sold (like on eBay) when you really cannot get a good look at the coin and the slab/label carries the sale.


- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10471 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2018  01:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Yet, unless contact was made to ask the owner of the shop how long ago he graded, then the phrase "it was decades ago" is baseless opinion/wishful thinking.


Interesting how you demand proof for everything but the word of someone selling you things you self admitted haven't talked to in years. Your own posts have at times said when you reentered the hobby a while back were told. If you haven't talked to them for years and they had been a long time dealer when you talked to them they clearly couldn't have been anything but a dealer for the last decade or so.

As I have said in every thread where is the proof they ever worked for a TPG much less which one? Dealers say things all the time that means absolutely nothing.

Want to buy silver for $30 bucks because it's sure to be $50 again soon and can only go up? If not why? A dealer said it so it must be true right? Dealers say things like that all the time at local shows and in their shops.

You hate the TPGS, that's fine that's your choice. But all this hearsay stuff you were maybe told years ago from someone who may have once worked at a TPG but there is no proof they ever did is just

If one of your students turned in a paper and said I have no proof of this but I was once told years ago by someone I haven't talked to in years we both know you would fail them and say that isn't a source, but you are using it as one as it fits your bias.

Nothing you say will bring the TPGs down. Steering people away is actually doing them a disservice especially if you just want to believe local dealers selling raw. Plenty of people have submitted after going that way to be shocked at the ride they were taken for.


Quote:
No coin, once broken out, is guaranteed to ever have the same grade assigned again.


For good reason. The point of the slab is to prevent tampering and a secondary benefit is protection. Nothing says a coin wouldn't be harmed or messed with when it is raw again before getting back to them.
Forum Dad
Learn More...
United States
19337 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2018  09:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The point of the slab is to prevent tampering and a secondary benefit is protection.


The original point of slabs was so dealers could sell/trade coins sight unseen. That may have worked for a few minutes.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5321 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2018  12:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
you self admitted haven't talked to in years.

Sorry - my mistake in wording. I have bought coins from him since we talked of this. I have had contact.


Quote:
As I have said in every thread where is the proof they ever worked for a TPG much less which one? Dealers say things all the time that means absolutely nothing...but there is no proof they ever did is just

Yup...and since you have repeatedly said you won't take my word for it (and I do not expect you to!), I offered the contact information. Which you repeatedly avoid.

IF it was a long time ago (which we do not know), until we have current info from a similar source, we still will not know if the problem was ever rectified.

I initially took his opinion and his challengeto research what he was saying as well. Facts such as we see on CCF all the time about problems with actual slabes and TPGs were just one source while slabs in hand were another.


Quote:
Want to buy silver for $30 bucks because it's sure to be $50 again soon and can only go up? If not why? A dealer said it so it must be true right? Dealers say things like that all the time at local shows and in their shops.

But yet you said your source of information was what the TPGs post on their own websites about their own businesses!


Even in your recent news post (thanks by the way - good read!):
http://goccf.com/t/323072#2754561
NGC's article gives the impression NGC was the one behind this guy getting caught, when the facts from the actual account show an undercover ATF officer and a former victim were responsible for the arrest, not NGC.
http://goccf.com/t/323072#2754561.

Double standards do not make for credibility.


Quote:
Plenty of people have submitted after going that way to be shocked at the ride they were taken for.

See the slab at the start of this thread? Not hard to find other such things as already referenced prior in this thread.

Please don't repond with a useless, baseless remark such as, "Well many more people are duped by raw coins than slabbed." However, if you have actual, verifiable documentation of the statistics, I really would love to see what they say.


Quote:
You hate the TPGS, that's fine that's your choice. B

I stated my reasons for posting facts before. I guess you don't understand bringing up your alleged agenda (again and again) hinders your own validity?


Quote:
but there is no proof they ever did is just

So contact him already!
And even if it was a long time ago (which we do not know), until we have current info from a similar source, we still will not know.


Quote:
but you are using it as one as it fits your bias.

ad hominem

QED

For those (some younger here), not familiar with the term: "Ad hominem" is when a debater diverts focus from the subject by making negative remarks/accusations about the character of the people on the other side of the discussion.

We humans (I did include myself) normally respond like this when we know we are cornered. Its a fight not to fall into the trap!

In circles of debate, use of ad hominem is seen for what it is and results in loss of the debate (nice way of saying it proves their position is false) for the one using it.


QED = Latin for "quod erat demonstrandum" (which was to be demonstrated), Your math teacher may or may not have had you end your proofs in geometry with this.



- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
7394 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2018  01:59 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
For those (some younger here), not familiar with the term: "Ad hominem" is when a debater diverts focus from the subject by making negative remarks/accusations about the character of the people on the other side of the discussion.


I am familiar with the term and how often some members use the practice to escape unanswerable questions or lack of knowledge/evidence. I stated my role and had a bit of scat thrown my way. Truth is quite preferable to infighting.
Bad puns make me [sic].

My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
Pillar of the Community
United States
1011 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2018  09:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bret to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm kind of hoping that one grader looked at the coins for less than 10 seconds. If so, that can be fixed if they want to do so. If three graders looked at each coin, then it says a whole lot about the value of the service they offer. Either way, the results are crap and not worth the price of the postage it cost to send the coins in.
Valued Member
United States
423 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2018  4:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Not Mint to Be to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While we're talking about TPG there was an article in Coin World, I believe, were they sent the same coin to the major graders and basically got a shotgun pattern of results. Does anyone recall that article?
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10471 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2018  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The original point of slabs was so dealers could sell/trade coins sight unseen.


I was just speaking of the slab itself and the reason for the shift from the initial photo-certificates and sealed flips. For sure that was one of the major reasons for the start of the TPGs though.


Quote:
I offered the contact information. Which you repeatedly avoid.


Because it makes no difference without providing proof or known graders vouching they were there. I've heard plenty of dealers claim to have been things they never were. That doesn't even get into the whole fact of how good they actually were or if they were fired or left disgruntled ect.

As I said you would never take it as gospel and would never allow the "evidence" you present to fly in a paper of one of your students.


Quote:
See the slab at the start of this thread?


What about it? One is an S mint the other is a P mint. Both can certainly be an F unless you are just going by pure technical grading which hasn't been done in a long long time though some people still choose to use it for their own tastes. That's fine if they want to grade only technically, but they need to understand how their grading differs.

As I said already one of those could easily be a net grade anyway and until someone gets them in hand we won't know from those pictures alone.


Quote:
until we have current info from a similar source


We have plenty of information from real sources. I've posted several times where they can be found. There's an active grader posting on the CU forum who has worked at three of the four and knows many of the ones that do/did at the others.

You could also call them, look through financial reports (for PCGS not the others), try actually using the services yourself ect.


Quote:
While we're talking about TPG there was an article in Coin World, I believe, were they sent the same coin to the major graders and basically got a shotgun pattern of results.


The different companies grade a little differently that's no secret. The sample size in that article was very small anyway far to small to draw any meaningful conclusions when it was a handful of coins (10-15 if I remember right) submitted a single a time. Most coins come back the same from PCGS/NGC and really today's ICG too or the difference is marginal at best such as a 40 vs 45 but its still a XF type thing.

The major difference right now is really that PCGS emphasizes eye appeal and luster more than NGC currently does in the sense that PCGS will hold grades back if those are missing and NGC doesn't seem to penalize them as much. The top pops and high value stuff has some differences too but that's a whole different playing field. Overall most coins that the average collector can afford would grade the same at PCGS/NGC
Pillar of the Community
United States
5321 Posts
 Posted 07/06/2018  11:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I am familiar with the term and how often some members use the practice to escape unanswerable questions or lack of knowledge/evidence

I find even many 'educated" people nowadays have never heard the term and are unaware when they kil their own position...until you point it out. I ran into a lawyer who tried to pull this on me once. I defined ad hominem for him (suspect he already knew though as its a tactic they use to win rather than using fact), and he turned around and walked away.

I have spent many years teaching high school kids critical thinking skills through computer programming and math classes. In Math I stressed WHAT we were doing and not just HOW something was done. I made them think and reason.

I tend have teaching in my blood.

The main reason I put up rebuttals in this subject, of course, is so facts can be learned by those seeking facts about the TPGs.

At the same time there has been another reason all along. Again I have younger readers in mind all the time. Our youth are programmed nowadays into using these useless ad hominem responses while thinking its actually legitimate.

In all of the threads where this specific discussion back and forth has occurred, I have replying b *also* b/c its not often you get to demonstrate so easily the difference between logical, verifiable fact, and how using emotion for reason is self defeating.

As I said, I posted the ad hominem and QED definitions for younger readers. What drives the point home even more is that the definitions were obviously ignored and an attempt at rebuttal was made from a self-defeated and lost side of a debate.

- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Page: of 6 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Ending Soon   Newly Listed   Lowest Price   Highest Price   Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2018 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2018 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.27 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05