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Kingdom Of Poland Coins By Century (963 - 1586)

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 Posted 10/15/2018  5:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The majority of medieval (pre-1500) royal Polish coins I've seen posted on other threads in this forum were of the "crown and eagle" type, and we've now seen two here, a few posts ago by @spence for Wladyslaw III, and mine for Wladyslaw II.

This combination of symbols was first seen in a denar of Wladyslaw Lokietek (1306-1333), but Kazimierez III who followed him did not use it on the smaller denominations, only on the groschen discussed upthread. All four Polish kings of the 15th century Wladyslaw II, III, Kazimierz IV and Jan) would use it for denars and 1/2 groschen minted at Krakow, and this combination of design elements would continue in to the 16th century for small denominations.

Here is a 1/2 grosz/groschen of Casimir IV Jagiello (1447-1492). I have it attributed as G.450, but would be grateful for the Kopicki equivalent, and whether he gives a more narrow date range (I have seen Kop. 379 for this type with different letters below the crown). I have read in Gumowski that the 1/2 grosz of Casimir had a greater silver content before 1456, and this is a much larger coin than another 1/2 grosz I have of the same ruler.
Obv: Crown with MK below. REGIS POLONIE
Rev: Eagle. MONETA KAZIMIRI



(edit: on further research, might this be Kop.381? And I have seen a date range 1468-79 for this type on CoinArchives)
Edited by tdziemia
10/15/2018 8:42 pm
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 Posted 10/15/2018  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdz, ok well I agree that the "MK" below the crown makes your coin a Kopicki 381. I would add that this Half Groshen is also listed in Frynas' Medieval Coins of Bohemia, Hungary, and Poland as P.18.1. In this more recent reference, the date is refined from Casimir IV Jagiello's whole reign down to 1455-1479 AD. I'd probably date your coin to that range.

Very slightly later in time is my Half Groshen of this same ruler. It is much more common than yours, and attributed as Kopicki 384 and Frynas P.18.2. It dates to between 1479 and 1492 AD.



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"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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 Posted 10/15/2018  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the confirmation on Kopicki, and on the date range.
I am thinking I need to set aside some budget for a copy of Kopicki so I can quit bugging you

All but one of my pre-1500 Polish coins came from Karl Stephens or Jean Elsen. Some came with Kopicki attributions, some Gumowski but no apparent rhyme or reason as to which catalog was used.
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 Posted 10/15/2018  9:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No bother at all. Kopicki is nice because it includes prices (for what that is worth), but Frynas is more up to date, is written in English, and includes Bohemia and Hungary. Having both references is nice, but I'd probably pick Frynas if I only had room/budget for one of them.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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 Posted 10/16/2018  09:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gallienus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Possibly the best (albeit incomplete) reference in English are the auction catalogs for the Karolkiewicz collection, sold off via CNG."

Technically I can't post anything as I only have 1 Polish coin before 1586 and I haven't received it yet. It's a 1539 trojak (3 grosz/groschen). I once had a Xerox copy of Gumowski, but my wife made me throw it away as she said I have too many books.

Karl Stephens represented me at the Karolkiewicz collection sale in 2000 from which I bought 2 thalers. Unfortunately these were both from the 1700's as I did not win a single hammered (earlier) Polish piece from that sale. Karl did send me a free hardbound copy of that catalog and urged me to attend the sale in person which I did not. I was still not very knowledgeable about Polish back in 2000.

Edited by Gallienus
10/16/2018 09:34 am
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 Posted 10/16/2018  7:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@gallienus, I was just beginning to learn about early Polish coins in 2000. As with all European coinage in the pre-modern era, the coins help tell the story of national boundaries, political/dynastic alliances, waxing and waning of economic fortunes, and so on.
I have only one coin ex-Karolkiewicz: the Kazimierz denar I posted a page or two ago. It was part of a 3-coin lot bought by Mr. Stephens that he then broke up and sold. If you got two thalers outright (not secondarily like my tiny denar), I say BRAVO!

Next week we will move on to Polish coins of the first half of the 16th c., so I hope you will post that 1539 trojak ( I will be interested to see whether it is Gdansk or Elbing).

Lastly, @spence has mentioned that the Frynas catalog is in English, so this negates my comments on the catalog for the Karolkiewicz sale. That catalog is great, but focuses mostly on the flashier, larger coins which merited attention at auction. So I am guessing Frynas is more thorough, and a good recommendation (as always) from @spence..
Edited by tdziemia
10/16/2018 9:42 pm
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 Posted 10/17/2018  09:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gallienus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdziemia
Unfortunately I have few earlier Polish coins before 1600. One problem is that of references: I only have "Moneta Polska" by Aurthur J. Majewski c. 1987 which is in English. I have 2 copies. I recall that a real Gumowski is hard to find.

One problem is that it's hard to picture Polish coins since when you see them there's often no scale. Also unlike other things you simply can't go to a small coin show and expect to see Polish grozy from the 1300's.

@Spence
I have one Pomeranian coin. Unfortunately I never made a computer entry for it, so will have to research it anew. I recall it being another thaler (sorry!) from Stack's bought around 2001.
Edited by Gallienus
10/17/2018 10:08 am
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 Posted 10/17/2018  4:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
One problem is that it's hard to picture Polish coins since when you see them there's often no scale


Very good point. Way upthread, I mentioned that the 11th and 12th c. denars are the typical (small!) size of most medieval denars, 12-15 mm diameter, smaller than a U.S. dime.

In the mid-14th to mid-15th century, we see larger half groats (polgrosz or 1/2 grosz), running 22-23 mm, or about the size of a nickel. Mid-way through the reign of Kazimierz IV, they got downsized to about 18-19 mm, but at the same time, we see a slightly larger denomination, the schilling issued, at a wider number of mints than seen previously (Torun, Gdansk, Elblag). But these are still small coins, not much larger than a penny.

For collectors of large silver, there was nothing made in 1400s Poland, and very little made in 1500s. A 1533 Zygmunt I thaler was listed in the Karolkiewich auction for $10,000 (copies of that thaler available on the web for $2 ). I believe the next date issued was 1564 under Zygmunt II. One of these is currently up for auction with a starting price of $45,000. Next came the Gdansk siege thaler of 1577 (last sale $9,500). And the Bathory thalers of 1580 and 1585 (last sale $8,000).


Edited by tdziemia
10/17/2018 4:09 pm
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 Posted 10/17/2018  5:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SO, speaking of size, here are a small denar of Jan Olbracht (also seen as John Albert) 1492-1501. I have it as Gum.466 and Kop.385 (yep ... more "crown & eagle" types)



... and a 1/2 grosz Gum.467 and Kop. 386



and, for scale:
Edited by tdziemia
10/17/2018 8:56 pm
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 Posted 10/17/2018  8:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A bit more historical context...

The reign of Kazimierz IV Jagiello (1447-92) was an especially important one. The reversal of fortunes of the Teutonic Order intiated by his father was completed by Kazimierz. In 1454 the newly formed Prussian Confederation (of cities including Torun, ,Gdansk and Elblag) rebelled against the Teutonic Order, and enlisted the aid of Kazimierz, who willingly responded, as Poland and the Order had been at odds already for over 100 years. After a prolonged conflict, Poland prevailed, and in the Treaty of Torun (1466), Western Prussia (including the cities of the confederation) became a Polish province, and while the Teutonic Order remained in place with diminished lands (they still held Marienburg/Malbork), they pledged fealty to the Polish crown. Polish territory again extended to the Baltic Sea.
For this reason, we see schillings minted under Kazimierz' name, but bearing the coats of arms of the newly conquered cities of Torun (eagle wielding a sword), Gdansk (two crosses) and Elblag (two crosses, on a checkered background). We will see these on coins posted next week.

Three of Kazimierz' sons succeeded him on the throne: Jan Olbracht to close the 15th century, Alexander and Zygmunt to start the next.
Edited by tdziemia
10/17/2018 8:55 pm
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 Posted 10/18/2018  3:18 pm  Show Profile   Check giedrius's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add giedrius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm too late, unfortunately, but got one Polish coin today only. Condition terrible, unfortunately. Wladyslaw Jagiello, half-groat, Lemberg (modern Lviv, Ukraine),mint.Obverse: White Eagle, Polish Coat of Arms,legend: WLADISLAI REGIS.Reverse: Lion, Coat of Arms of Lemberg. Legend: MONETA LEMBRVD 20mm; 1.05g.

Catalogue of Lithuanian half-groats 1495-1529 http://goccf.com/t/282866
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 Posted 10/18/2018  5:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great contribution, @giedrius, since I think most of what's been posted for 14th and 15th century is Krakow mint. And it's REALLY nice to see a coin that is not crown-and-eagle!

Lviv (Lwow in Polish, Lemberg in German) came under Polish rule in 1340 under Kazimierz III, and remained part of Poland and the Polish-Lithuanian comonwealth until the first partition of Poland in 1772. I have no coins from this mint in my collection.
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 Posted 10/19/2018  07:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Speaking of crown and eagle Denars from the Krackow mint, here is mine. It dates to the time frame of 1492 to 1501 AD and is attributed as Kopicki #385. Looks pretty similar to yours @tdz.



"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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 Posted 10/19/2018  08:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice sharp one!

As we move into the 1500s we will see all kinds of new designs: that famous Lithuanian horse and rider, portraits, and more! Even the Krakow crown-and-eagle will get more interesting on larger denominations.
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 Posted 10/19/2018  4:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Time to move into the 16th century!

For the next week, please post coins from the reign of Alexander (1501-1506) and his younger brother Zygmunt I (The Old) who ascended the throne at the age of 39 in 1506, and reigned until his death 41 years later in 1548.

Zygmunt's reign saw the widespread minting of groats/grosze at a number of mints, the introduction of the trojak (3 groschen) and szostak (6 groschen) in 1526, and the first Polish thaler (1533).

I think there may also be some coins from nearby principalities like Glogow, Leignitz, and Breslau and Brandenburg with connections to Poland out there. Let's see them, too!
Edited by tdziemia
10/20/2018 4:12 pm
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