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1817 James Monroe Indian Peace Medal, 76mm, 2nd Reverse For Sale

 
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Valued Member
United States
274 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2018  10:54 pm Show Profile   Check yellow88's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
1817 James Monroe Indian Peace Medal, 76mm, 2nd Reverse For Sale

Motivated seller. Accepting offers. PayPal only.

Item will ship within 2 business days of payment via USPS First Class Package service with tracking #. Domestic shipping is free.

Please see photos before buying as the coin pictured is the exact item you will receive, the photos are part of the description. Thank you!








https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/160000000000?nordt true orig_cvip true itemTitle target _blank rel nofollow 160000000000 /a ---Copy.jpg" border="0" style='cursor:default' onClick='doimage(this,event)'>
eBay ID: sellingsecretslegit

eBay store: http://stores.ebay.com/globalcoinsandcollectibles/
Valued Member
United States
274 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2018  03:02 am  Show Profile   Check yellow88's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Additional information provided by current owner-

1817 James Monroe Indian Peace Medal
FURST & REICH, 2nd Reverse, 76mm/7mm
Bronzed Copper, Struck At U.S. Mint

Light chocolate brown surfaces that are highly reflective and almost immaculate. The owner preferred these "raw" but this is far finer than the noticeably spotted and discolored "slab" MS64 and MS65 Indian Peace medals we've seen.

Owner's Notes:
Missing left serif of T in FURST on obverse. A medal dating from about 1885 in the West Point collection has a missing left serif of T in FURST and probably marks the original obverse die for the 76 mm size.
Indian's index finger pointing at F in FRIENDSHIP, and flat-top A's instead of pointed on reverse. These to unique characteristics are attributed to medals struck with the 2nd reverse die prior to 1890.
The custom hand-made glass, wood, and purple satin display case designed and built specifically for the above medal. Materials, methods, and style are all indicative of similar examples' known to be crafted 1870-1900.
Taking into account the totality of key elements along with extensive study of comparables and historical documentation, in my opinion, I conservatively estimate mintage prior to the turn of the century.

History:
After the delays experienced by the preceding Madison medals, the work for President James Monroe went rather smoothly. As John Reich was not available to do the work because of his poor eyesight, Moritz Furst was hired by John Vaughan, who again superintended the entire project for the Office of Indian Affairs. Furst, who went to Washington in the latter part of 1818 to model the president, began to cut the dies by the end of that year and finished the three sizes obverses only since the old reverses by Reich were still to be used early in 1819. The artist was paid $1000 for the dies and his expenses in going to Washington.

The first mintage medals were not available to the public and were utilized almost exclusively as diplomatic gifts or other government purposes for quite some time. These medals are quite easy to identify but incredibly rare commanding very high prices even in poor condition. After 1860 only the largest of the three Monroe medals was usually sold to collectors although occasionally the other sizes were produced.

Engraver: Moritz Furst (obv) and John Reich (rev).

The obverse features a bust of Monroe facing to the right. Over his suit coat is a draped cloth. The legend around his head reads, "JAMES MONROE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. A.D. 1817; FURST F." The reverse displays two hands shaking below a peace pipe and tomahawk. The legend reads, "PEACE AND FRIENDSHIP." The reverse design was a popular one on medals struck between 1809-1849. Unlike previous medals, the right hand lacks the cuff topped with an eagle. John Vaughn, Office of Indian Affairs believed that the cuff was not appropriate on an Indian.
eBay ID: sellingsecretslegit

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 Posted 10/06/2018  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fioti to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice! Is it your scale or is it an 8 oz. medal?
Valued Member
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 Posted 10/06/2018  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Check yellow88's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
lol
Both- old inaccurate scale plus huge, heavy medal.
As soon as I can weigh the medal on an accurate digital scale I will update post/listing with the exact weight clearly stated.

eBay ID: sellingsecretslegit

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7219 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2018  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That medal was struck last year.

"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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7219 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2018  10:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All of the markers mentioned appear on recent 3-inch restrikes.
You'll have to do a bit more homework to convince us it's not a 25 dollar medal.

"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Edited by DBM
10/06/2018 10:17 pm
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United States
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 Posted 10/07/2018  04:05 am  Show Profile   Check yellow88's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello DBM!

My goal is to immediately correct any inaccuracy or misstatement related to the medal.

I am not the owner of the medal. The owner supplied the information related to the medal which I double-checked to the best of my ability. Admittedly, I am not an expert and I periodically make mistakes but not because of laziness or lack of caring. Hence the following request.

If you would be so kind DBM to provide the third party references substantiating your claims as soon as possible. It requires only a moment to cut and paste the links. I am sure you, or any person that values accuracy, would lend great credence to a prompt response.

Your omissions of facts and references is surprisingly unusual especially on a forum of this caliber. Certainly time can be eliminated as a factor as almost 2 hours transpired between posts.

Lastly,
"You'll have to do a bit more homework to convince us it's not a 25 dollar medal."
I would think a pillar of any community would have more grace than to make a condescending statement such as this.

Please take a moment, and everyone for that matter, to click the links in the signature below. Clearly assisting my local numismatic community while having fun are the motivations underlying the ethos. Personal financial incentive is nonexistent. In addition, a cursory review of ratings and feedback demonstrate reputation, honesty, accuracy, and integrity are of utmost importance.

Regards,
Yellow88
eBay ID: sellingsecretslegit

eBay store: http://stores.ebay.com/globalcoinsandcollectibles/
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 Posted 10/07/2018  08:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RPT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't see any James Monroe on the US Mint website currently but here's Thomas Jefferson.

https://catalog.usmint.gov/thomas-j...1.1531321081
Valued Member
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 Posted 10/09/2018  01:28 am  Show Profile   Check yellow88's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks RPT-

I saw that as well. It's interesting the Mint states the Designer and Engraver of the obverse as "N/A'.

The Thomas Jefferson and George Washington peace medals, unsurprisingly, seem to be the most popular on a consistent basis. Both bronze peace medal sizes now are only available in that washed out yellow color for some reason. The 3 inch peace medals have only been offered in that unmistakably ugly (IMHO) yellow color only for a long time now.

Until recently the smaller medal had the nice rich looking dark red finish. Looked sharp I thought.

Some more good info from the Mint's site (I learn something new everyday):

"The Presidential Medals series began as the Peace Medals series. Presidents gave medals as a sign of peace with Native American tribes, when signing peace treaties with other nations, and at other events. The tradition originated during the Colonial period when leaders gave medals to Native American chiefs to strengthen relations. The Lewis and Clark expedition carried Thomas Jefferson's peace medal in three different sizes, as well as medals from George Washington's second term.

Medal production was not an original function of the Mint, so peace medals were contracted out - often to Mint employees using Mint equipment after hours. Starting with Rutherford B. Hayes, the Mint took over medal production and the Peace Medals series transitioned to the Presidential Medals series. The Peace Medals series continued concurrently for four more presidents, ending with Benjamin Harrison. By that time, the primary function of the medals as symbols of peace and allegiance had waned.

The current Presidential Medals series features peace medal designs until the Ulysses S. Grant medal, with some exceptions. The presidential medal designs differ from the original peace medal designs for George Washington, John Adams, William Henry Harrison, James Buchanan, and Abraham Lincoln."
eBay ID: sellingsecretslegit

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 Posted 10/09/2018  07:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scopru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What price are you hoping to get?

And is this already posted on eBay by you?

Everyday is a great day. Semper Fi.
ANA number: 3178122
NTCA number:10118
My Wants List: http://goccf.com/t/188411
Edited by scopru
10/09/2018 07:46 am
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 Posted 10/09/2018  12:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RPT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yellow88 -


Quote:
Both bronze peace medal sizes now are only available in that washed out yellow color for some reason


I have the full set of small medals. They are much more red in hand.
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 Posted 10/11/2018  09:34 am  Show Profile   Check yellow88's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
scopru- Yes, the medal is for sale here and on eBay. The price on eBay is $349.99.

RPT- I know exactly what you mean. I have a full set of the US Mint Presidential Series in the small size. Interestingly they were all purchased over a very broad period of time and there are certainly noticeable differences between a number of them. From the quality of the strike, to the "look" of the coin (some very bright; others more matte in appearance, and the color varies a great deal as well.

I cannot find a definitive resource listing mintage dates, varieties (if any), or the specific metals or percentage there of used, as this can make up striking (no pun intended differences between the coins in appearance.

I will post some pics of what I mean hopefully today and in the appropriate thread.

Thanks to you both. I appreciate it.
eBay ID: sellingsecretslegit

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 Posted 10/11/2018  11:19 am  Show Profile   Check TNG's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...Bronze+Medal

The velour lining the medal is shown in intrigues me. I would like to see a picture of the entire box or case your medal is in.
The US Mint has reissued these medals. In 3 inch and 1 and 1/4 inch sizes. The large ones came in a box but the box was not lined with a material as far as I know.
On the left of most every CCF page, I am trying to remember to use CCF Partners links. They are highlighted in lime green!
It helps CCF a little. Try it!
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 Posted 10/12/2018  02:53 am  Show Profile   Check yellow88's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pic of velvet/velour lining
Pic of custom display case underneath
Pic of bottom of wooden display case
Pic of the glass that covers the display.
Pic of "reddish/golden" G Washington bronze US Mint 1 5/8 inch medal
Pic of G Washington bronze US Mint 1 5/8 inch medal (much older than one above)







eBay ID: sellingsecretslegit

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 Posted 10/12/2018  09:44 am  Show Profile   Check TNG's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the pictures
On the left of most every CCF page, I am trying to remember to use CCF Partners links. They are highlighted in lime green!
It helps CCF a little. Try it!
Valued Member
United States
274 Posts
 Posted 10/14/2018  01:37 am  Show Profile   Check yellow88's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add yellow88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TNG- No problem. It's my pleasure.

I have at least one (small size) example of all the US Mint's President medal series up to the second Bush. I have no idea when each was purchased but it appears they were purchased over a relatively long period of time. Almost all are uncirculated and stored properly.

There is certainly differences between some of the medals. These differences are often very subtle. I am notoriously poor at taking photos so the aforementioned differences don't present themselves very well in my eBay listings' pics, for example.

The Washington medals pictured above are the most obvious example.

This is not the only US Mint series where the above occurs but I do not want to go off topic.

Thanks again everyone for your interest, input, and great questions!
eBay ID: sellingsecretslegit

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