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Flandrian Double Groot Boldager (1346 To 1384 Ad)

 
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 Posted 12/02/2018  6:07 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
The low countries are definitely a weak spot for me, so I'm looking for a little help with the attribution (and date) on this Double Groot Boldager (Lion Double Gros). Here is what I know: it was minted between 1346 and 1384 AD in Flanders under the authority of Louis II of Maele. The obv legend is LVDOVICVS DEI GRA COMES Z DNS FLANDRIA while the rev legends are MONETA DE FLANDRIE and BENEDICTVS QVI VENIT IN NOMINE DOMINI. Due to the French influence in Flanders at this time, it is listed as Roberts #8155. The main design element of a lion wearing an oversized crown on his head sorta reminds me of a cat with a paper bag stuck on its head.

So what is my question? Well, it is my understanding that Gaillard (and perhaps DeMey or others) have further subdivided this type. Anyone out there able to provide additional attributions or a tighter date range? I do see that a couple of similar coins have been posted on CCF previously:

http://goccf.com/t/260343
http://goccf.com/t/258871&whichpage=22#2218170

Thx!





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 Posted 12/02/2018  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dave I wish I could help. All I can say is that is a cool looking coin.
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 Posted 12/02/2018  6:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can't help, but I agree with Ron: mighty cool looking coin.
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 Posted 12/02/2018  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thx guys! Hopefully, our European counterparts will weigh in when they wake up.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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 Posted 12/02/2018  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think I might have found a match for your coin. One is listed in "Coins of Medieval Europe by Philip Grierson" as a AR Plak of Louis II of Male Ghent, 31mm x 3.59g Gaillard 223.
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 Posted 12/02/2018  8:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok thanks Ron for digging into this for me. I don't have Grierson's book. Does he list the date as 1346 to 1384 AD, 1350 to 1383 AD, 1380 to 1383 AD, or something else? In my interwebs searching, I was able to find similar coins listed as Gaillard 223, 224, 227, and 229, but no good explanation for the differences. Also, I think that the widest date range corresponds to Louis II's reign, but it isn't clear to me which varieties were issued over which time ranges.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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Edited by Spence
12/02/2018 9:53 pm
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 Posted 12/02/2018  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1346-1384. Doesn't really give a lot of information other than it was stuck towards the end of Louis II reign.
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 Posted 12/02/2018  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ok thx!
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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 Posted 12/02/2018  10:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice "boot scraper" which I believe is how the name translates.

On the last "How far back" thread, back around 1360s to 1380s, I think you might find a link to an online version of Gaillard that got posted when a couple of us posted one of these.
(Edit: it must have been the "Going Back in TIme by Decades" thread.)

I am not sure what differentiates the date ranges. These pop up frequently at the Elsen auctions. May be able to do some research there (but for now I need to go get my beauty rest )
Edited by tdziemia
12/02/2018 10:41 pm
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 Posted 12/03/2018  12:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How nice to be working part-time. I can spend endless hours on CCF!

Referring to the "Going back in time by decade" thread, antwerpen and I posted this type as well (p. 11, around Feb. 15, 2018). antwerpen gives a link to an online copy of Gaillard. The date ranges can be determined by the punctuation in the exterior and interior reverse legends. Yours looks similar to mine (three dots punctuation exterior, and leaves or branches interior) Gaillard 223, dated at 1373-77 (later edit: late 1360s). Antwerpen's has trefoils punctuating he interior legend rev., and is Gaillard 224.

But others can check if that's right
Edited by tdziemia
12/03/2018 4:55 pm
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 Posted 12/03/2018  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great looking coin!
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 Posted 12/03/2018  4:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
More information (some of it correcting my earlier date range), gleaned from Elsen catalogs.

1st emission Ghent 1365-67. Gaillard 223. Punctuation of exterior legend with 3 dots; interior legend with parsley leaf
http://www.elsen.eu/Auction-135/-94.../eitem/60396

2d emission (to be added when I find it)

3d emission Ghent 1368-69. Gaillard 224. Punctuation of exterior legend with 3 dots; interior legend with clover/trefoil
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=l...2684&lot=828

4th emission, Ghent 1373-77. Gaillard 224. Punctuation of exterior legend with 2 dots; interior legend with clover/trefoil
http://www.elsen.eu/List-284/PAYS-B.../eitem/82125

5th emission, Mechelen 1380-83, Gaill.224 Same punctuation as above
http://www.elsen.eu/List-285/PAYS-B.../eitem/80116

So, yours is indeed Gaillard 223 (1st or 2d emission), but from late 1360s.
Edited by tdziemia
12/03/2018 4:57 pm
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 Posted 12/03/2018  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You rock @tdz! Thanks for this info.
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 Posted 12/03/2018  7:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, being a dog lover, you also rock with the cat and paper bag comment in the OP. I read that out loud here, and we got a major chuckle.
Though I think it's a lion with a helmet, and the crown on top of the helmet.
(And, for the record, yours truly DID use a paper bag with cutouts as a medieval helmet for Halloween perhaps 50 years ago).
Edited by tdziemia
12/03/2018 8:00 pm
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 Posted 12/04/2018  1:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AnYangMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Awesome coin Spence! In the Dutch market, these botdragers are amongst the most common Dutch late-medieval silver pieces you can find, only to be beaten by the Leeuwengroten from the ruler by the same name, but can be extremely pretty with their large flan size and pretty design. The term 'botdrager' (in Middle-Dutch often spelled as Botdreger, Boddreger or boudrager) is fairly difficult to translate and how it became known as the name for a denomination is quite funny. Sadly I must disappoint you by telling you that this specific type, while having been called 'Botdrager' by the numismatic community for at least a century, sadly is not actually a botdrager! Multiple books and articles have tried to correct this mistake, but it seems to continue to this day. The true botdrager was not introduced until 1389; roughly five years after the death of Louis. These were rather called Plaques, Dubbele groten (double groats) or Lion d'argent (silver lion). The true botdragers (see image below) were first issued by Louis' successor, Phillip the Bold, and were called botdragers because of their obverse image. In it we see a rather similar lion, wearing a sort of 'cape' with the coat of arms on it. If we dissect the word 'botdrager', we see two words: Bot and Drager. Drager translates to 'wearer' and Bot is an archaic term for a special type of woven basket worn on the back; the cape apparently reminded people of this phenomena, and the name stuck and was even put in 'official' documents.



To further expand upon the information provided by tdziemia:

- 1st emission: Gent, 28/03/1365 untill 11/12/1367 (I'm using d/m/y in case that wasn't clear). 14.583.450 pieces struck. Exterior legend punctuation: 3 dots, interior parsley. Round-backed E's.

- 2nd emission: Gent, 21/01/1368 untill 18/06/1368. 1.353.750 pieces struck. Exterior legend punctuation 3 dots, Clover instead of parsley punctuation on the interior legend. Round-backed E's.

- 3rd emission: Gent, 18/06/1368 untill 09/08/1369. 7.987.125 pieces struck. Exterior legend punctuation 3 dots, Clover punctuation on the interior legend. Acute-backed E's.

- 4th emission: Gent, 18/06/1373 untill 27/06/1377. 5.721.375 pieces struck. Exterior legend punctuation: two dots instead of three, Clover punctuation on the interior legend. Round-backed E's again.

- 5th emission: Mechelen, 30/01/1380-11/09/1383: 6.502.670 pieces struck. Exterior legend punctuation: two dots instead of three, Clover punctuation on the interior legend. Acute-backed E's again.

-(6th emission: Mechelen, 12/09/1383 untill 29/02/1384. 797.500 pieces struck. A somewhat obscure emission with only limited specimens produced, sometimes grouped under the fifth. Usually specimens with lacking interpunction are put here, but this is a highly debated group.)

All of these data are derived from administrative documents from the mint that somehow survived and have been carefully studied by numismatists over the past few decades. But keep in mind that these are rough estimates based on the amount of silver processed; the actual amount produced will likely vary by a few handful. Every 3-4 months the mint would report and file a document, meaning we have data on mint-output quite frequently! Some of these numbers are quite staggering. Between 28/3/1365 and 28/6/1365, the first period in which these were minted, the output was no less than 1.932.300 coins for this type alone! That's more than 21.000 coins PER DAY! Your piece belongs to this first emission; Parsley, three dots and round-backed E's.

If you really wanna browse Gaillard: https://archive.org/details/recherc...es00gailuoft . But there are a few more up-to-date references for this type!
Edited by AnYangMan
12/04/2018 1:55 pm
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 Posted 12/04/2018  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I definitely want to do some digging about this issue. My speculative take. Groot is obviously from Grosso and its weight( reported by some else in the thread )being around 3.5-3.8 grams really matches up to the Gros Tornois( in Size also). Given the date range and that it was minted in the low countries I would be surprised if it were not part of the Gros Tornois family.
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