Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Question About 1928 FRN Payable In Gold Clause

 
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community

United States
3403 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2019  3:51 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Were 1928 FRN notes with the payable in gold clause also illegal to own after 1933 like the gold certificates? If legal to own, I presume the gold clause was considered null and void. So what was the purpose of issuing both these notes and the gold certificates?

Pillar of the Community
United States
1517 Posts
 Posted 05/19/2019  12:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Where's Cionfrog and SteveinTampa?
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
76254 Posts
Pillar of the Community
United States
2259 Posts
 Posted 05/19/2019  04:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I saw this thread yesterday, but wanted to check some dates.

Beginning in 1933, the Treasury Department took the position that Gold Certificates of any sort could not legally be held by anyone, including numismatics. Banks were directed to turn in any they received. Currency collectors and dealers considered the regulations to be unfair. Then, through the intervention of paper money collector Amon G Carter Jr. on April 24, 1964, Secretary of the Treasury Douglas Dillon removed all restrictions. Notes came out of hiding and since then have been openly bought and sold.

I'm sorry, What was the question ?
Edited by SteveInTampa
05/19/2019 04:33 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
4409 Posts
 Posted 05/19/2019  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MeadowviewCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I may be wrong in my thinking but here is my thought:

The Federal Reserve notes were obligations of that particular branch whereas Gold Certificates were obligations of the Treasury.

Others may disagree with my reasoning.

-MV
I'm slowly building my numismatic library--106 works and counting

With assistance, trying to compile a listing of numismatic reference books & materials available to collectors http://goccf.com/t/174749
Pillar of the Community
United States
918 Posts
 Posted 05/19/2019  10:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mfhorn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After a quick search of the definition of both branches.....
Pillar of the Community
United States
1092 Posts
 Posted 05/19/2019  11:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The Federal Reserve notes were obligations of that particular branch whereas Gold Certificates were obligations of the Treasury.

Currency was not so simple back then. From Dismal Facts: Federal Reserve Notes on the Fed's FRASER economic history website

Quote:
When Federal Reserve notes debuted in 1914 (when the 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks opened), they were just one more option in the American currency market. Other parties issuing currency were the U.S. Treasury (which issued United States notes, silver certificates, and gold certificates) and nationally-chartered private banks (which issued national bank notes secured by U.S. bonds). Some of these were legal tender—money that can be used to legally discharge any debt—and Federal Reserve notes technically weren't. The Federal Reserve Act specified that the notes could be used to pay "taxes, customs, and other public dues" without saying anything about private debt.

Plus the Federal Reserve Act specifically tied the Fed and any FRNs it issued to the gold standard whereas other forms of currency were not. All of which changed in '33-'34 when FDR took the US off of the gold standard (sort of, but that's another story)
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
40408 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2019  3:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry, gang - just back after a storm-induced 3-day loss of telephone service, whch for us means TV and internet as well. Good input from several on this point.

The situation with gold coins was much different, with the original law allowing ownership of not just collector gold coins and rarities, but (seldom mentioned fact) also up to $100 face value of common gold for almost everyone!
Edited by Coinfrog
05/20/2019 4:12 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1092 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2019  4:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The situation with gold coins was much different, with the original law allowing ownership of not just collector gold coins and rarities, but (seldom mentioned fact) also up to $100 face value of common gold for almost everyone!



but, the Dec 28, 1933 order from the acting Treasury Secretary indicated

Quote:
...THEREFORE, I, HENRY MORGENTHAU, JR., ACTING SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY, do hereby require every person subject to the jurisdiction of the United States forthwith to pay and deliver to the Treasurer of the United States all gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates situated in the United States, owned by such person except as follows:

(a) Gold bullion owned by a person now holding such gold under a license heretofore granted by or under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury, pursuant to the executive order of August 28, 1933, relating to the hoarding, export and earmarking of gold coin, bullion, or currency and to transactions in foreign exchange;

(b) Gold coin having a recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coin (but not including quarter eagles, otherwise known as $2.50 pieces);

(c) Unmelted scrap gold and gold sweepings in an amount not exceeding in the aggregate $100 belonging to any one person; and gold which has been put through a process of fabrication for a specific and customary industrial, professional, or ornamental use;

(d) Gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates owned by a Federal Reserve Bank or the Reconstruction Finance Corporation; and

(e) Gold bullion and foreign gold coin now situated in the Philippine Islands, American Samoa, Guam, Hawaii, Panama Canal Zone, Puerto Rico, or the Virgin Islands of the United States, owned by a person not domiciled or doing business in the continental United States.

so, just what did they have against the lowly quarter eagle
Pillar of the Community
United States
3403 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2019  4:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But was the 1928 frn with gold clause required to be turned in?

Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
40408 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2019  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a good question, and one I don't believe I've ever heard discussed before.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1092 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2019  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But was the 1928 frn with gold clause required to be turned in?


Apparently not

Again from the FRASER website, here's an excerpt (bottom of pg.3 to top of pg. 4) from

DOCUMENTS AND STATEMENTS PERTAINING TO THE BANKING EMERGENCY
Federal Legislation, Executive Orders, Regulations, and Official Statements pertaining primarily to gold, currency, and foreign exchange
PART II
APRIL 5-JUNE 5, 1933



Quote:
To facilitate the identification of gold certificates, as distinguished from other currency, the Treasury points out, that gold certificates may be identified by the words 'Gold certificate' appearing thereon. In the case of gold certificates of the small-size currency, which were first issued in 1929, the title 'Gold certificate' appears on the face of the certificate, and in the case of gold certificates of the large-size currency (the issue of which was discontinued in 1929), the title 'Gold certificate' appears on the back. The serial number and the Treasury seal on the face of a gold certificate are printed in yellow. While Federal reserve notes and United States notes are re-deemable in gold and bear a provision to that effect, they are not 'gold certificates/ and are not, therefore, required to be surrendered.


where I added the bold emphasis. The GPO printed posters that were displayed in Post Office's informing the public of exactly what had to be turned in.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2259 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2019  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My guess would be no.

I consider the obligation to be "fine print" and not subject to the same scrutiny given to paper money with the the words Gold Certificate in large writing over a Gold Seal and Gold serial numbers. Easy to spot and pull.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3403 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2019  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the info Baddog.
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
40408 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2019  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
BadDog - Good digging, thanks.
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.41 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05