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Pride Of Two Nations Set

 
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Valued Member
United States
76 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  4:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave92029 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'd love to see what the results would be, to see if the labeled coins are really that much better, or higher quality than the non-labeled.


Is the "art" created by Jackson Pollack really better, or higher quality that the "art" created by any 6 year old?

Can't say, but many people spend millions of $ to get Jackson Pollacks signature.

The ASE has been sold in collector versions since 1986. They are all pretty much the same except for date, mint marks, and some special finishes. Are any really "better" or "higher quality" I don't think so.

Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  4:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add historicantiques to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

dave92029: I agree with you, only time will tell.

But the provenance of an antique (who owned it, used it, etc.) is a lot different than a RCM label. A civil war rifle that can be traced back to a Confederate soldier who used it at Gettysburg (provenance) or a silver teapot that can be proven to have been handed down from your great-great-great-great grandparents who lived during the Revolutionary War (provenance) are bits of information that impart authenticity and a unique historical connection to important historical periods or events. It makes an object unique and thus more valuable.

An RCM label imparts nothing like "provenance" - it proves the set was sold in Canada, came from Canada, but that's about it. The coins are absolutely the same as 100,000 others, and have absolutely the same history (made at the RCM or US mint).

On Antique Roadshow, even objects that have no provenance whatsoever, except that it was found at a house sale, are found to be worth $$$$$ - so provenance for value isn't required.
Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add historicantiques to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

If an art expert/dealer can demonstrate the style and techniques pioneered by Pollack in a painting of his, which later influenced the art world and gave his art a unique "taste" or "twist", then yes I can see why that painting was worth millions, as opposed to a worthless drawing by a 6-year old who influenced nobody.

I don't know enough about Pollack or any painter to appreciate how they influenced, molded, and commandeered the art world, much less can I detect and feel his essence and expression. Many dealers/collectors can, and they'd reject the 6-year old's painting as rubbish.
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United States
73436 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wife has the set in hand. It will be there when I get home.
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United States
73436 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  5:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm new here but I have been reading this thread for a while...
to the Community!
Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  5:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add historicantiques to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


dave92029: I'm not saying you're wrong or that labels or origins, or certificates of "Early Release" are not valued nowadays. They are, and I'm trying to grapple with "Why?"

I'd say there should be some solid, evidence that proves that "Early Release" coins are statistically, in general, better quality coins than non-Early Release coins. Thus the study I suggested several posts before. If for example, 70% or 80% of all "Early Releases" were found to be PF69s or 70s, and 70% or 80% of non-First Releases were found to be lower than PF-69, then I'd say it's worth getting those labels.

I'm still unclear about labels of origin ( RCM vs. US Mint) and how to calculate the values. If they do not have unique provenance, and are all the same, from exactly the same mints, I'm not sure as far as coins are concerned, why an RCM origin coin should be worth more than a US Mint origin coin. The only value placed on them would be based on the "scarcity" of the labels/packaging, and NOT based on the coins themselves.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2842 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add morgans dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, You are correct,IMO, a new key PROOF, ASE !! PS, Actually, the 2019 Enhanced Reverse Proof from the RCM, Is just another of the 110,000 proofs out there so. ...
Edited by morgans dad
07/11/2019 5:30 pm
Valued Member
United States
76 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave92029 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The "mystery" to me is the grading between 69 and 70.

Used to be, I believe before approx 2005, that coins graded 70 were much rarer than those graded 69. If you take a look at the current NGC Census results, the coins graded 70 are about a 10:1 over those graded 69. Therefore, shouldn't the 69 graded coins be more valuable because they are rarer? I understand that bulk submitters can reject coins that would be graded 69 which distorts the analysis.

I have both 69 and 70 graded coins in my collection and have great difficulty seeing any difference on some of them.

We get back to the age old question about value and what's a fair price. The answer has always been what a party at arms length will pay for something.

It appears that some of the RCM sets are asking for a premium on ebay.

The real test is when someone submits some of these coins to a Registry, and how the grading company handles them. Time will tell, and its nice that this is also an attractive set in pretty OMP.
Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add historicantiques to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


jbuck - wish you lots of luck with your sets!! They are beautiful, especially the ASE!!
Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add historicantiques to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

dave92029: I agree, there are a lot more PF-70s than there were before 2000. It could be that Minting technology has improved, or they're putting more money/resources into minting higher quality coins. But you're right, the fact that dealers can reject PF-69s doesn't help analyses. However, in the case of Pride of Two Nations, even "rejected" sets will find their place in the market, given the extremely high demand for them, whether they're PF-70s or 69s.

Or do you think grading standards have been deteriorating the past 20 years?
Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  6:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add historicantiques to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I guess most people here are focused primarily on mintages to determine "Key" ASE issues. The 2011 P and S, reversed proof and burnished issues, and the 1995-W come to mind.

But maybe we should also think about demand - that even though 110,000 Pride ASEs exist, if because of their exceptional and unique beauty, they capture the attention of many more buyers than just the usual ASE collector, then prices could rival, at least the 2011 issues, maybe go beyond them.

Think of them as beautiful women or handsome men - there are millions of them, all over the place. BUT, another one coming down the way will attract the same if not more attention than the ones before, especially if she or he is exposed more to the public, letting it know she exists....

We should not only think about mintages in this ASE case, because the degree it attracts buyers and how much it's exposed to the public, may replace mintages as a factor in its value. Just my opinion....
Pillar of the Community
United States
1266 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bret to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have both 69 and 70 graded coins in my collection and have great difficulty seeing any difference on some of them.

dave, I have only one 3rd party graded ASE in my collection. It's a proof 69 1995-W and is flawless. I looked at a bunch of 1995-W's before I bought it. I saw several proof 70's that had issues that I wouldn't even have purchased as proof 69's, mostly spots or specs. No doubt some developed the spots after being slabbed. I'm completely happy that I was able to purchase a perfect in my opinion 1995-W proof at a proof 69 price. BTW, I would have been perfectly happy buying one that's ungraded, but the vast majority had been graded. All of the ones that were not graded looked terrible, which is why they were not graded. Plus, the OGP would have required me to purchase the 1995 gold proofs, which I didn't want to do. The bottom line here is that if you don't have to have a label that says proof 70, you can likely buy a proof 69 that looks perfect. It just takes looking at a bunch.
Valued Member
United States
59 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add historicantiques to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I think it would be interesting to know how many sets were sold to Canadians, compared to how many were sold to Americans. May not affect prices or "rarity" but if, for example, 25,000 were eventually sold to Canadians, and 85,000 stayed in the U.S., would that affect US prices a little given it's more of a hassle to buy Canadian sets from here, and thus push up the price for US-based sets?
Valued Member
United States
76 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave92029 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My five US Mint sets arrived this afternoon, and I boxed the USM box and dropped it off at the local UPS store for delivery to APMEX.

All eight sets (3 Canadian; and 5 USM) are scheduled to arrive at their respective destinations on Saturday.

Now I just sit back and wait...
Edited by dave92029
07/11/2019 7:31 pm
New Member
United States
8 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2019  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbravo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After looking over my sets I noticed that two of them have a break in the frosting in the exact same place to the right of the JM initials. Has anyone else seen the same thing on theirs? Does a break in the frosting prevent them from getting a 70 grade?
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