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Completely Centsles.. Ebay Seller Taking Advantage Of Newbies.

 
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Valued Member
United States
444 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joecoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There is nothing similar to CAC's business and the eBay seller Centless. CAC sticker's coins that they are interested in purchasing. CAC stickers NGC and PCGS coins that are high end of grade for a fee. JA the owner of CAC is an honest and expert grader, and he was one of the founders of both PCGS and NGC. CAC buys and sells sticker coins to dealers. CAC business is not set up to buy and sell coins from the general public. If a collector went to CAC to sell their sticker coins, CAC would most likely make an offer to purchase. A novice collector buying a CAC sticker coin is getting some protection that the example is high end of grade and problem free. A novice buying a coin from Centless is getting ripped off.


Respectfully disagree, I said this was similar, not identical.

CAC is taking coins and adding value to them by giving an opinion as to the grade already on them. Then selling those coins to their customers who happen to be dealers. Those dealers are not taking those coins home and putting them under the mattress.

centsles is taking coins and grading them according to his opinion and selling them to his customers.

Neither company is adhering to "industry standards". If they were, CAC would agree with the grade already on the slab and there would be no need for the stickers, and centsles would grade every coin exactly the same as the 2 big TPG's.

I'm well aware of the reputation of JA, and I'm not attempting to besmirch him in any way. He could well be the smartest man in the world. Doesn't matter to me, both companies are providing a service that suits their own self interest. That's the nature of business.

Ethical? Not for me to decide.

Similar? Yes, in some aspects.

I'll never buy a coin based on eithers standards.
Pillar of the Community
United States
6687 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  1:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Would you decline buying a life-saving cancer medication for your loved one, deemed by most medical oncology professionals as the most effective in the market, because the physician who developed it is your doctor and gets a $100 royalty check for working tirelessly for years to develop it every time she prescribes it? There is a conflict of interest here too, but I would purchase the medication and treatment and thank her every day of my life for what he has done for my loved one.

Conflicts always exist and they are there to be managed, not to be used as an excuse for making bad decisions.

A conflict is a warning sign that something might go wrong. The character of the actor matters in determining whether what could go wrong will go wrong.

Centsles has a track record of bad faith in business. Albanese does not.
Edited by numismatic student
06/20/2019 1:02 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
6687 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another example closer to numismaticss is your relationship with experts in their field. Rick Snow is a leading expert in the Indian cent series. He also sells coins for a living. Should I never buy from him because he developed and markets his photo seal certification? No. I appreciate the value of his keen eye for coins in that series even though he pockets certification fees and coin premiums based on his certification. He monetizes his expertise like I do mine in my profession.

Again character is revealed over time and it matters.
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 Posted 06/20/2019  1:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Finally, learning how to grade for yourself is the best remedy against charlatans. Alternatively you can always get a second opinion here in the CCF grading forum.

Edited by numismatic student
06/20/2019 1:29 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
6026 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Been reading this just now and find it interesting.


Quote:
Would you decline buying a life-saving cancer medication for your loved one, deemed by most medical oncology professionals as the most effective in the market, because the physician who developed it is your doctor and gets a $100 royalty check for working tirelessly for years to develop it every time she prescribes it?


I would buy the medicine of course. But the medicine is based on an exacting science while coin grading is not. TPGs COULD HAVE been based scientifically a long time agom but slabbing relies on the TPG's admitted subjectivity plus (no small thing) their faithful followers (who have pumped money into the system over the years) to keep the fires burning.

We are supposed to be in the 21st century now. Back in the 80s when the first shuttle went into space, the US took a close up picture of the rivets in the side of the heat tiles from a Hawaii-based telescope. They verified (repeatable) the condition of the rivets with enough certainty they were willing to give the OK for re-entry. There is more computing power in the typical iPhone than any computer used to put men on the moon.

...and we still rely upon subjective opinions as to the grade of a coin? Seems like a good argument the system is all about marketing and a way to keep in business by not applying modern technology.

https://www.coincommunity.com/forum...y_ID=2967242

BTW - this is no slam on people who enjoy slabs. Hobbies are about the fun we have. I personally collect date nails from old railroad ties - no value - never will be - but interesting to me just for what they are.
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Valued Member
United States
444 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joecoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Equating a cure for cancer to grading a coin is beyond my realm of understanding. I'll just take your word for it that they are the same thing.


As for Rick Snow, he provides variety attribution, does he not? Now that's a third party opinion I can agree needs to exist in the hobby.

All here are welcome to agree that I am way off base and couldn't be more wrong. I'll just continue to live in my own little world where I believe that little green and gold stickers are just a marketing gimmick and that the purveyor of those stickers has a conflict of interest if he is buying and selling coins with those stickers.


I'm not questioning anyone's honesty and integrity, I'm just giving my opinion, same as JA and centsles.

Give me a green sticker if you agree with me.



Pillar of the Community
United States
6687 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  1:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coin grading and cancer research are both intellectual endeavors to discover something. But apart from that the similarity is in the conflict. Both developed a product - a certification or drug - and they can benefit by abusing the proper use of that product. The comparison of the conflict is spot on imho.
Valued Member
United States
444 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joecoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Coin grading and cancer research are both intellectual endeavors to discover something.



And both have a lot of fraud and false hope amongst the good.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 06/20/2019  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is the similarity. The difference is that it is easier to walk away from a coin purchase than a drug treatment when your life is on the line.
Edited by numismatic student
06/20/2019 1:46 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2344 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  3:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
CAC is taking coins and adding value to them by giving an opinion as to the grade already on them.


CAC is not the one adding value to the coin. The market is adding value to the coin by the willingness to pay more for the CAC sticker.

I find it inappropriate to group CAC and centsles as similar.

JA does a number of things to support and grow the hobby. For example, collectors do not pay for coins submitted to CAC that do not sticker. A membership at CAC requires the member to be an ANA member.

centsles knows how to grade to industry standards. For example, the guy won a grading contest at one of the major shows. Grades put on his coins are given to attract novice collectors to make a purchase at an inflated price. It makes new collectors like Chip Schleichard question if they want to continue collecting coins after being ripped off.
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9164 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
CAC is taking coins and adding value to them by giving an opinion as to the grade already on them. Then selling those coins to their customers who happen to be dealers.


@joecoin: I think you misunderstand how CAC functions. To suggest they add value and then sell to dealers is far from what actually happens.

CAC has zero vested interest in 99.9% of the coins they approve. Collectors and dealers submit their own coins to CAC for approval. Sure CAC does buy and sell some coins but the impetus behind the creation of CAC was gradeflation, not selling CAC approved coins for nefarious profit.

If you view John Albanese's coin website you'll see many coins that are not CAC approved.
ANA #R3154474
Valued Member
United States
444 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  6:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joecoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Quote:
CAC is taking coins and adding value to them by giving an opinion as to the grade already on them.


CAC is not the one adding value to the coin. The market is adding value to the coin by the willingness to pay more for the CAC sticker.



Okay, I'll rephrase my statement:

CAC is taking coins and adding stickers to them, which causes the market to add value to the coins in question.

The owner of CAC is a major market player, according to several posts in this thread and so many other threads throughout the internet. He's a wonderful smart guy who has contributed more to the hobby than anyone ever. He's in business to make money, but his altruistic concerns override every decision he makes.

I've got nothing against this guy, I'm just not a fan of hero worship.

I'll leave this thread now and you guys can continue to worship at the altar of the green sticker.


Edited by joecoin
06/20/2019 6:21 pm
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8086 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think a lot of people misunderstand CAC and its reasoning. The market and collectors made an assumption that a CAC "green bean" indicates that the slabbed coin is choice in its grade, or of superior quality. As a result, a premium developed for coins with CAC's approval. However, that's not what the little green sticker represents. A CAC green bean simply means that the coin has been reviewed by CAC and in their opinion the assigned grade on the slab is correct (not too low and not too high.) On the very rare occasions when CAC issues a gold bean, it usually means the coin is at least one point undergraded -- this is often seen on old PCGS rattler holders and soap bar NGC's.

Just because a CAC sticker is on a coin doesn't mean you don't have to do your numismatic due diligence. For instance, CAC favors toned coins, and coins with some toning that in many cases would be considered as having poor eye appeal are often "beaned" regardless just based on the toning. On the other hand, gold coins are VERY strictly graded, and even coins that I would consider surefire undergrades often don't get a bean.

I've also seen a few recent misses (including a recent Indian Head cent I was looking at that was graded XF45 PCGS/CAC and not only had zero luster and a weak strike, it had a large and somewhat deep gouge across the cheek.)

That being said, the CAC premium shows no signs of diminishing; it's become almost de rigueur at the major sales for top dollar results. My personal interpretation is that it reassures investors/collectors that someone else has looked at the coin and thereby obviates some of the need for them to actually learn about the coin/series or how to grade it correctly, a kind of panacea for the lazy and uneducated and for those who are only chasing returns on investments and care little about the hobby. That's not a slam on CAC -- I think CAC provides a valuable and important service to our community -- but the lack of understanding of what that little green bean represents is somewhat detrimental since it causes price inflation.

As to centsles, the only thing I ever bought from him was a single roll of "unsearched" (sic.) wheat cents many, many years ago; I think I paid $3 and change for it, and it was filled with common dates, a couple of cleaned coins, a holed 1917, and a fake brass plated 1943. That was enough to convince me to stay away, and I had very little numismatic knowledge back then.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Pillar of the Community
United States
2109 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  6:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with this Ebay seller...try to familiarize yourself with grading standards. Buy the book first, then the coin.

KK
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12138 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2019  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
CAC is taking coins and adding stickers to them, which causes the market to add value to the coins in question.


Because their opinion is respected and they have proven themselves time and again. The man behind it has done a lot for a hobby including either running or ran a nonproit to help collectors that had been scammed get their money back. He's also proven his skill time and again through many different jobs and throughout his career. If the market didn't like what they were doing the market would reject them just like several other stickers are essentially meaningless in the market.


Quote:
I've got nothing against this guy, I'm just not a fan of hero worship.


No one's hero worshiping or saying hes going to turn wine into water, but it would be foolish not to put more weight into his opinion on a coin than into 99 percent of other peoples opinion especially if they haven't seen it in hand. It's the crowd against CAC that always try to somehow push this hero worshiping idea. Why wouldn't you want a top expert second opinion on a high value coin?


Quote:
My personal interpretation is that it reassures investors/collectors that someone else has looked at the coin and thereby obviates some of the need for them to actually learn about the coin/series or how to grade it correctly, a kind of panacea for the lazy and uneducated and for those who are only chasing returns on investments and care little about the hobby.


I really hate this attitude and perception that gets pushed. Many of the most advanced collectors rely on CAC for extra guidance. The simple fact is that unless you're willing to study all day everyday and look at coins as a full time job like CAC and the TPGs do, there's a lot of doctoring and things of that nature that will be missed. Most collectors want their hobby to be enjoyable and still have a life, that doesn't make them lazy or uninterested, it just means they want balance. CAC is a tool that allows them to do that and for the high end collectors CAC is a smart protection on the money they are putting into their coins.

The hobby is perfectly fine, but if we get to the point where people are expected to be experts before making purchases or more expensive purchases the amount of people that will be interested in that will be drastically diminished
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