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US Mint New Listing On Schedule For A 2019 Enhanced Reverse Proof American Silver Eagle

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Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2019  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bret to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You can sue anyone for anything you want, doesn't mean it's a legitimate action.

Sure, the plaintiff has to prove their case.


Quote:
eBay themselves tells you that buyers can cancel bids or purchases whenever they want.

If by "whenever" you mean within the first hour, then yes. After that, the seller has to agree for the order to be cancelled. This is part of the contract.
https://www.ebay.com/help/buying/ca...t=9056_BUYER
https://www.ebay.com/help/buying/re...item?id=4041


Quote:
No there's not, you don't get to claim lost profit in most states. Your purchase price is what matters.

Profit does not enter in to the equation. Whether the buyer or seller has fulfilled the terms of the contract is what matters. If the buyer or seller has suffered a loss as a result of the other party not fulfilling the contract, then the other party has a legal obligation to make them whole. If what you're saying was accurate, then AMPEX in the example above would have no claim against buyers who don't pay for an order simply because the market price has fallen. The mint sells bullion ASE's to the bullion distributors all the time. They absolutely would have a claim against any bullion dealer that didn't pay for an order that they placed if the price of silver went down.


Quote:
Contract law goes out the window when dealing with eBay. You are subject to their rules regarding breaking the deal which is what a judge will ask (what does eBay's terms dictate).

Contract law doesn't go out the window at all. eBay's terms and conditions are not above the law. They are simply the terms and conditions of the contract. I'm sure that ebay has plenty of good lawyers who make sure their terms and conditions fall within the law.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12947 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2019  7:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The mint sells bullion ASE's to the bullion distributors all the time. They absolutely would have a claim against any bullion dealer that didn't pay for an order that they placed if the price of silver went down.


Completely irrelevant to eBay and the mints contract with distributors requires payment upfront.

Again there's actual case law that deals with these things, in the majority of states the purchase price is the only "damage" that the buyer suffered and is made whole with a full refund.
Fire A.J. Preller

Go Navy Beat Army
Edited by basebal21
12/11/2019 7:23 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2019  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bret to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Completely irrelevant to eBay and the mints contract with distributors requires payment upfront.

Not irrelevant as both have to do with contract law. I understand that the mint doesn't offer credit and therefore requires payment up front before they ship. However, a bullion dealer has to know how much money to send the mint. No doubt they have some sort of purchase agreement (contract). Otherwise, what would they do? Just send in $X and tell the mint to send them as many ASE's as that buys? I'm sure the mint's smart about it. If a bullion dealer were to fink out on a purchase, then they'd no longer be able to buy from the mint.


Quote:
Again there's actual case law that deals with these things, in the majority of states the purchase price is the only "damage" that the buyer suffered and is made whole with a full refund.

There's no case law necessary as there are actual laws that deal with the basics of contracts. Again, you're wrong about a buyer being automatically made whole with a full refund of the contract price, but I think we've pretty much beat this one to death. The best thing for people of integrity to do is to only buy from other people who have integrity. They seller that didn't ship the three ASE's is certainly someone to be avoided. At best he finked out on three purchases below $2000. At worst he didn't ship the ASE that he's now wanting to sell for tens of thousands. Either way he put a price on his integrity.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12947 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2019  8:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Not irrelevant as both have to do with contract law.


A government contract between the mint and it's bullion distributors is about as irrelevant as it gets when it comes to payment terms for a completely separate private entity.


Quote:
There's no case law necessary as there are actual laws that deal with the basics of contracts


That's twice now you've engaged in legal discussions and completely dismissed case law which is the actual real world interpretations and applications of laws by the courts for your own feelings on a matter

I would strongly suggest reading mrpapageorgio post again as it summed up the issue about as simply as it can be.
Fire A.J. Preller

Go Navy Beat Army
Edited by basebal21
12/11/2019 8:09 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2019  8:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bret to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
A government contract between the mint and it's bullion distributors is about as irrelevant as it gets when it comes to payment terms for a completely separate private entity.

They are different situations, but they are the same in so much as both are required to follow contract law.


Quote:
That's twice now you've engaged in legal discussions and completely dismissed case law which is the actual real world interpretations and applications of laws by the courts for your own feelings on a matter

I didn't completely dismiss case law. It simply doesn't trump basic contract law, so it's not relevant to this discussion. Case law can enter in to a legal ruling when existing law is too vague for the details of a particular situation. Subsequent court rulings follow the case law unless and until actual written law is revised and clarified.
New Member
United States
37 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2019  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add calradix to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just saw that my coin is in the 8k COA number. I think I'm going to sell it. convince me otherwise please...tell me that this coin will be worth 25k in 10 years. lol
Valued Member
United States
374 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2019  10:45 pm  Show Profile   Check AES's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add AES to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
tell me that this coin will be worth 25k in 10 years.


I expect the population of 70s will be greater than the population of 1995-W 69s by this time next year. And the 95-W set which also includes almost 2 troy ounces of proof gold only fetches somewhere in the 5k-6k range last time I checked.
Valued Member
United States
165 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2019  11:35 pm  Show Profile   Check dave92029's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add dave92029 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was just looking over the NGC census info on their Price Guide.

First the number of pf69 coins seemed much higher than on the Pride of Two Nations ERP coins, and second...(620 pf69 of 3776 total)

Mercanti appears to have signed more than 2,000 2019-S coins in addition to more than 2000 Pride of Two Nation coins.

How much does Mercanti get paid for his signature, and with so many coins signed by Mercanti why would anyone pay extra for his signature?His signature does Not appear "Rare".


Edited by dave92029
12/11/2019 11:38 pm
Valued Member
United States
262 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2019  12:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mrpapageorgio to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Contract law doesn't go out the window at all. eBay's terms and conditions are not above the law. They are simply the terms and conditions of the contract. I'm sure that ebay has plenty of good lawyers who make sure their terms and conditions fall within the law.


It absolutely does go out the window, at least in terms of eBay's rules are part of the contract and can modify the default rules of contract law. You agreed to eBay's terms and conditions when signing up for an account and completing a transaction using their website. By completing a transaction on their site, the transaction is governed by their rules including what happens in case of breach. I can list "absolutely no refunds" all day on an eBay listing, but if I refuse to refund, eBay and Paypal can still force me to accept the return or yank the money out of my bank account because I agreed to their rules when selling on their website if they deem it proper.

If you don't like it, don't use their website to broker the transaction (just like not using Paypal to facilitate payment if you don't like their terms governing disputes).

People have the freedom to contract away rights all the time. For example, I can sign an agreement with someone that waves the right to sue in court and instead opt for arbitration. That's what freedom of contract is. Of course, there are exceptions (such as a contract term being so unconscionable or extremely one sided), but I haven't seen a case yet that had nullified eBay's terms and conditions as unconscionable or against public policy.


Quote:

Quote:

A government contract between the mint and it's bullion distributors is about as irrelevant as it gets when it comes to payment terms for a completely separate private entity.


They are different situations, but they are the same in so much as both are required to follow contract law.


They actually are very different because contracts between two merchants are usually treated very differently than between a merchant/private party or two private parties.
Edited by mrpapageorgio
12/12/2019 03:19 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
851 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2019  06:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Meh. the eBay legal arguments are dull. Go ahead and Sue if you like, you can sue anyone for anything, it doesn't mean you're gonna win because you filed a lawsuit and think you're right. A seller on ebay can back out. A buyer on ebay can back out.
All you can do is ding them with a negative feedback as a seller or a buyer.

You as the purchaser aren't out anything and him as a seller aren't out anything if either of you back out except time. Both parties are whole as if the transaction never happened and it's not actionable unless you want to waste time and money to lose in the end.
I'm not talking about if he misrepresents or take your money and doesn't ship anything, or if you as a buyer didn't complete the transaction and the price goes down so you cancel it and get it cheaper somewhere else. If both parties are whole it's not actionable. All you can do is ding them on their feedback with a negative.

You don't have a contract between buyers and sellers besides ebay terms. Don't like their terms, don't buy or sell on ebay it's real simple.



Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2019  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bret to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It absolutely does go out the window, at least in terms of eBay's rules are part of the contract and can modify the default rules of contract law.

Given that eBay's terms and conditions have to comply with contract law, I don't see how one can say that contract law goes out the window. I do agree with everything else that you said except for contracts between merchants being different than those between merchants and individuals. The details are certainly different, but the basics of contact law remain the same.


Quote:
Sue if you like, you can sue anyone for anything, it doesn't mean you're gonna win because you filed a lawsuit and think you're right.

Right. One has to prove that he's actually suffered a loss.

Quote:
A seller on ebay can back out. A buyer on ebay can back out.
All you can do is ding them with a negative feedback as a seller or a buyer.

Realistically that's the case, but one could sue if they were so inclined and thought it was worth the hassle.


Quote:
You as the purchaser aren't out anything and him as a seller aren't out anything if either of you back out except time. Both parties are whole as if the transaction never happened and it's not actionable unless you want to waste time and money to lose in the end.

Again, 100% incorrect. Both parties are not automatically made whole simply because both did not fulfill the terms of the contract. If the market price changes there is a loss. See the Ampex example that I gave above. Of course it's rare that someone will sue in most eBay situations.
Pillar of the Community
United States
693 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2019  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wyzeguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply



Wow!, even a 68 brought in over $1500. Granted his was the first one so prolly received more attention but still.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12947 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2019  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You as the purchaser aren't out anything and him as a seller aren't out anything if either of you back out except time.



Quote:
Case law can enter in to a legal ruling when existing law is too vague for the details of a particular situation


This is a complete misunderstanding of the legal system at the most basic level. EVERY brief and decision refers to precedent and attempts to make connections to other cases even when there are no direct cases. Precedent is a fundamental part of the system not some tie breaker only used occasionally. This is why I don't understand why you keep trying to have legal arguments when you self admit you don't care about what is actually right dismissing precedents and just keep going off your opinion.

Also government contracts are in no way comparable to private entity contracts just as state laws don't apply federally.

Once again Mrpapa is correct in his responses.


Quote:
You as the purchaser aren't out anything and him as a seller aren't out anything if either of you back out except time.


For a long time this was true but not always now. I'm not advocating suing, but if the buyer pays and then cancels the seller is out the paypal fees. If the buyer backdout before paying then all the seller is out is a free listing which isn't a big deal at all.


Quote:
I expect the population of 70s will be greater than the population of 1995-W 69s by this time next year.


It already is. The signed COA ones especially the 1-5 could out perform the 95 W 70s, but for the normal ones the 95 W 70s will be much more expensive.


Quote:
Wow!, even a 68 brought in over $1500. Granted his was the first one so prolly received more attention but still.


Has nothing to do with the first one, that doesn't matter for lower grades. It got the price that's expected of about raw or slightly lower and lower than a 69.

Fire A.J. Preller

Go Navy Beat Army
Pillar of the Community
United States
1450 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2019  2:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bret to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This is a complete misunderstanding of the legal system at the most basic level. EVERY brief and decision refers to precedent and attempts to make connections to other cases even when there are no direct cases.

I really don't know what to tell you as this is just plain incorrect. I've had to sue quite a few businesses in court for not paying my company money that was owed. Never once has my attorney had to site case law and never once has case law been used in a decision. My attorney simply sites the actual written law(s) (passed by the legislature and signed by the governor) in whatever state we're in. What you're describing sounds more like English common law. We have used case law in other legal matters. It's just generally not necessary in matters of non payment as the written law is clear.


Quote:
Precedent is a fundamental part of the system not some tie breaker only used occasionally.

Again, case law is used when the written law isn't clear or isn't specific enough. It in no way trumps written law. In fact, it has to be within the bounds of written law or else it's likely to get overturned.


Quote:
This is why I don't understand why you keep trying to have legal arguments when you self admit you don't care about what is actually right dismissing precedents and just keep going off your opinion.

I never said that I don't care what's actually right. In fact I do. That's why I'm trying to explain these basics to you. It doesn't really bother me that you're misunderstanding, but you're a longstanding member of this forum with a great number of posts. Based on your coin knowledge, others might assume that your knowledge extends to legal matters as well. You've made statements that are just factually incorrect, so I'm just wanting to set the record straight for anyone who cares.


Quote:
Also government contracts are in no way comparable to private entity contracts just as state laws don't apply federally.

What we're talking about here is basic to state, federal and even foreign law. I do business in China and India. The same principals even apply there.

I think that we've both made our points and are going in circles now. If you want to have last word, that's fine. I think it would be best to get back on topic at this point as I don't think there's much more value to be added by further discussion.

I have a theory on what would cause someone to pay more for a 68 than a 69. Perhaps the buyer has a 68 1995-W proof and doesn't want the grade of the 2019-S ER proof to overshadow it.

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4814 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2019  2:44 pm  Show Profile   Check Foxwoods Man's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Foxwoods Man to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SO a PCGS FS 68 sells for $1525 and a few hours prior a PCGS FS 69 sold for $1399

Makes sense to me...
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