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Medieval German State Silver?

 
 
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 Posted 11/12/2019  8:34 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Struck on one side of a very thin flan that appears to have deformed in the process. Tiny at around 11-13 mm in diameter. Weight is a minuscule .28 grams.





Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
11/12/2019 8:35 pm
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 Posted 11/12/2019  10:42 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A preliminary shot in the dark would be Ravensberg or Jülich-Kleve-Berg, a Hohlpfennig or Kreuzer perhaps. Spence might be able to correct or refine that, I don't have a match offhand and might be way off. It seems to be cup-shaped so it would possibly be an earlier issue from wherever, mid 14th to mid 16th c.
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 Posted 11/13/2019  08:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It seems to be cup-shaped...

I might've been more explicit on that aspect, yes, it's concave on the struck side (obverse) and convex on the other.

Colligo ergo sum
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 Posted 11/14/2019  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I continued searching for some sort of match to this to no avail. I'm certainly not seeing any German issues that are in any way close.

I'd remark that the design seems suggestive of three political entities having been brought under a single ruler. The coat of arms to the left is rather distinctive for its inverted chevrons.

The coin is really quite crude, and perhaps much older than I might have first thought. I'm still hoping that somebody out there has the key to identifying it.

Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
11/14/2019 6:34 pm
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 Posted 11/14/2019  7:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@lc, I spent a bunch of time trolling around looking for uniface pfennige with that same triple chevron shield. The closest that I could find were some Batzens from late 15th/early 16th Century Augsburg. Although this bishopric is better known in heraldry for using the tree of life. Sorry that I didn't post anything, but my progress seemed quite limited.

I see that there are some mostly flattened letters around the rim of this coin. Other than a O, is there anything legible with the coin in hand?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
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"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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 Posted 11/15/2019  09:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Other than a O, is there anything legible with the coin in hand?

Nope. The photo is actually more revealing in this regard than close in hand examination.

Colligo ergo sum
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 Posted 11/15/2019  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok bummer. When I play with the brightness and contrast of your pic, I imagine that I see the lower part of a letter S to the right of the letter O.

In chasing down the 3 chevron shield, I have found two additional avenues:

1. Simon Langton (Archbishop of York in the 13th Century) and his decendants used a triple chevron at times.
2. Richard de Clare (2nd Earl of Pembroke in the 12th Century) used the same triple chevron.

My gut tells me that this coin is German/Austrian rather than English/Irish.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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 Posted 11/16/2019  2:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was actually beginning to lean towards an English origin for this coin, and I think your reference to Richard de Clare could be the crucial clue. Richard was not just Earl of Pembroke, but he was also Lord of Leinster (which previously had been an independent kingdom) & Justicar of Ireland. Following Richard's death in 1176, King Henry II took control of all his holdings & placed them under the administration of a royal official. This history fits rather nicely with the symbolism of a crown surmounting three different coats of arms.

Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
11/16/2019 2:09 pm
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 Posted 11/16/2019  5:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I imagine that I see the lower part of a letter S to the right of the letter O.

I'll go further and say that looks more like a numeral zero than a letter O to me, as the size looks smaller than the lettering, so I wonder if we could be looking at a coin (heller based on size) dated 1505?
The full legend seems unusual for such a small coin. Some letters can be partially made out (probably an R at 6:30, followed perhaps by a D and either X or A?)

Also, following up on the earlier post by @paralyse, one can find a coin from Julich-Berg with three shields that are pretty close, including one with a chevron (the lower row):
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces126878.html

Last, that crown sure looks like part of the Budweiser logo
Edited by tdziemia
11/16/2019 5:58 pm
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 Posted 11/16/2019  7:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Success!

This same arrangement of three shields and crown is also found on several small silver coins from the 17th Century in the German City State of Hanau-Münzenberg. Here is an example of a uniface Pfennig from numista which clearly shows this arrangement, but inscription doesn't really match:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces151423.html

More importantly, here is a link to a ma-shops auction showing a uniface Schüsselpfennig from Hanau-Münzenberg. This one is dated 1609, but it seems as though similar pieces exist dated between 1580 and 1612. The attribution is Suchier 54 ff.

https://www.ma-shops.com/raffler/item.php?id=14119

Added: without @tdz recognizing that two digits above the crown (0 5) as a date, I don't think that I would have figured this one out.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

Edited by Spence
11/16/2019 7:40 pm
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 Posted 11/16/2019  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great research! (as always).

Glad that despite being off by a mere 100 years I could help a bit
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 Posted 11/17/2019  05:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
...Ironically enough, had I been more persistent in my Saurma check, I would probably have stumbled on this much earlier.

(While Saurma doesn't have this exact type, it does have a few similar types with identical shields - but they're listed under "3 arms - 2 over 1", which I probably didn't realize would apply to this case.)
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 Posted 11/17/2019  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, Spence, you've obviously nailed this one down. And now looking closely at those characters on the periphery above the crown (for which just that "0" is readily decipherable), it could easily be the date 1605. That would unfortunately place this just on the wrong side of the date cutoff for this subforum, but given its crudity, I think I can be forgiven for originally thinking this to be an earlier issue.

Colligo ergo sum
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